Question for all dog owners

hiitdogs

hiitdogs

Cathlete
Hello Everyone!

I know there are a lot of dog lovers on this forum, so I thought I ask, if any of you have come across the problem I experienced.

I have 3 dogs, a 10-year old yellow lab, a 8 year old German Shepard Mix and we recently got a Mini Australian Shepard who is now 5 months old. I had my other two dogs ever since they were puppies and I have never had a tick problem. A couple of weeks ago things changed and I had a tick infestation. In the last 7 days, I probably pulled around 50 to 60 ticks of my dogs. I am a lot into naturopathic/homeopathic stuff, so I tried the "natural" treatments with some success, but after those critters were crawling on my floor and I found a fully engorged tick laying on my tile floor, I was worried that my kids or me and my husband could get bit by the ticks that were crawling all over my house, so I thought it's time to get out the "big guns".

I called my vet and they gave me K9Advantix. I put it on my dogs around 1 pm and within 1/2 hour my little Aussie seemed to be a little tired and sad but I didn't pay much attention to it. The vet had said, that they had never seen any negative effects of the medication. I had to leave for about 1.5 hours. When I came back my Aussie seemed like a different dog, totally hyper, running around like a mad dog and the worst part, his face had swollen up and he looked like a hammer head shark.

I immediately rushed him to vet. They said, it couldn't possibly be a result of the Advantix, so I got into an argument with them, saying that I had a perfectly healthy dog this morning and within less than a hour of applying that crap, he is showing behaviour that is totally untypical for him and his face is swollen like a balloon. Odds are that it is a result of the Advantix. I just didn't understand why they didn't warn me about the possible side effects, they made it sound like it is perfectly safe.

When I came home my other two dogs behaved really strange, being really skiddish, hidding in the corner, barking and growling at each other (which they have NEVER done before). So I went ahead and gave all three dogs a bath to wash that stuff off. I wasn't wearing gloves, within 15 to 20 min. I started feeling nautious, dizzy, and had diarrea.

So, I did some research on the Internet, wow, this stuff is far from safe, I came across a lot of cases were dogs had neurological damage, seizures and all kinds of other nasty things, or even died. None of them mentioned any facial swelling though. I am just wondering if any of you had any experience with it.

I am just worried sick about that little guy, he has a special place in my heart. I do like my other two dogs and I don't want anything to happen to them either, but the little Aussie is almost like my 3rd child.
I just feel horrible right now, he relies on me to take care of him and I thought I was doing the right thing to protect him from ticks, however, as it turns out, I may have done more damage than it did good! And I am SOOOOO mad at the vet and the manufacturer that they don't warn you. Bayer actually makes it sound like there is only an "occasional minor reaction". Looking on the Internet, there are 1000s of severe cases of reactions to that drug. I wish I had done the research before I put that poison on my dogs and not trusted my vet. I would have never put this crap on my dogs, had I known what I know now.

Sorry for being so long-winded. I really would appreciate any advise, feedback, etc.

Have a great day!

Carola
 
Hi Carola!!


I am soooo sorry to hear about what happend! I use Frontline for my dog. It's supposed to be great for fleas and ticks. I live in a heavily wooded area also. Knock wood...no problems as yet.

You have to be real careful about the vets you use. Years ago, I had a Maltese. We got him when he was like 10 weeks old. A couple of weeks after having him, he started acting very lethargic. I brought him to the vet and they said he was fine. Next day, same thing. I bring him back.... Vets getting annoyed with me saying the puppy is fine... Next day, the puppy couldn't get up! He kept falling over... I brought him to another vet, and it turned out he had a bacterial infection in his stomach. They treated him and in one day he was better!!!! However, if I had not brought him to another vet, he would have died!

Doctors don't seem to tell anybody about side effects. That's why its up to us to ask. My grandmother was put on Aricept. They put ALL patients with Alzheimers on this drug. It's supposed to slowdown the effects of the disease. After putting my grandmother on this drug, we've noticed that she has become incontinent. I don't want to get too graphic, but it's really bad. It's been about a year, and my grandmother's condition is much worse. I don't know that this drug has helped at all and my grandmother complains of pains and the incontinent problem is just plain gross. We can't keep up with her. We have a person who stays at her home and just keeps after her. Well a couple of weeks ago I went on the internet and found out that this drug's major side effects is frequent urination and diarrhea!!! Thinking back, I just lost my father in law a couple of months ago and he was put on this drug as well. He had the same problems! I asked my girlfriend about her mom who also has Alzheimers and she said that her mom has the same problem!! We took my grandmother off the medication. She's doing much better. I don't know about you, but I would much rather have my dignity. I also wonder if this drug really does anything at all.

Sorry I was so lengthy, I guess we both had to get some beef off our chest. I just often think how much kick back these doctors get for useless or even harmful medication....

Jill
 
Goodness! I've never experienced anything like this, and I'm sure glad. I hope your dogs are okay.

I use Frontline - the stuff you put on their backs once a month. I've never had a problem with it. In the past, I've also used Adam's flea and tick spray, if I was just taking my dog out for a walk or something.

I would definitely find something that works for your dogs. I had to put another dog to sleep because she contracted ihrlikeosis (I'm sure I spelled that wrong!), which is similar to Lyme disease. Unfortunately, the vet was unable to diagnose it until it was too far advanced for treatment.
 
Hi,

Last winter at my dogs yearly check up all three tested positive for Lyme disease. After the antibiotics I was told to use frontline. The Aussie seemed fine, but the doberman acted very strange for a couple of weeks. I was afraid to put it on my 15 year old Aussie. I was leary about using these products and won't again. The problem is I do need some type of tick protection. I think that Adams is better, but must be applied more frequently. I would love to hear of any more natural pesticides.

Tracy
 
I used one of those products on my dogs - the active ingredient (AI), as I recall, was fipronil. One dog (a Jack Russell) had a bit of a reaction to it (lethargy for a few days) but the other dogs, including another Jack, didn't. I know a couple of different AIs are used in these products; if you want to use them again, I'd make sure the new product has a different AI (not just a different product name).

I guess it comes down to your own personal assessment of the risks posed by ticks/fleas to you and your critters vs. risk to your animals posed by the product. Wouldn't presume to advise either way; just do your homework!
 
Thanks to everyone who has replied!

Jill, Sorry to hear about your Grandma, I am glad she is doing better. I totally agree with you. I am pretty sure doctors get kickbacks for useless or harmful medication. However, I think most of them don't really know about the harmful side effects, because the Pharmaceutical Industry likes to keep it under wraps, so the doctors and vets are just getting the pretty brochures and sales presentations. If the doc is not doing INDEPENDENT research, they will only get the spiel from the drug company and they won't harm their own sales. Who cares how many people get sick from one of their drugs, just get another drug for the side effects. Drug companies get rich and over the past 20 years as a society our health has deteriorated. We keep looking for the quick fix, the one pill that fixes it all in a day or two and the drug companies are feeding right into this.

Sorry for ranting and raving here, this is one of my pet peeves and really gets my blood boiling!!!

I always ask about potential side effects, either the doctor, pediatrician or vet (some doctors get really annoyed by that though). I did ask the vet, if that drug was safe and if there were any known side effects. I was told it was completely safe and the permethin (sp?) was actually derived from Marigolds. Shame on me that I didn't do any research BEFORE I put that stuff on my dogs. I guess I was getting desperate and was falling for the quick fix.

The dogs are all doing better this morning, thank God. I was up with them all night, administering Bach Flower Rescue Drops, cuddling them, washing them off with soapy water, etc.

Since I was up all night, I did some research on the Internet and there - aside from the very severe cases were dogs died, has seizures and other nasty stuff - there actually were several cases of swollen muzzles mentioned after the application of Advantix and BioSpot (similar ingredients).

I know fleas and ticks are annoying and tick borne disease can be pretty serious, however, before you put any of this stuff on your pets, please do the research on it and don’t rely only on the vet!

I hope everyone has a wonderful weekend and thanks again for your advise and feedback!

Carola
 
Carola,

I have no good advice, but just wanted to say I'm sooooo happy to hear that your babies are all doing better. You are a WONDERFUL mom to have done everything you did for them (bathing them to get it off, staying up all night with them). They are lucky to have you!

Suz

"Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened." - Anatole France

http://www.picturetrail.com/dogs2birds
 
Hi Suz

Thanks for your kind words. That was the least I could do for them, I was the one who put them into this situation to begin with.

I think it really pales though compared to what you are doing for your dog. I think it is amazing at what length you went to help that little dog. Not many people would even bother, the world sure needs more people like you.
I have followed your story about your new puppy for the past several months - what can I say, I am a lurker, I frequently go on the forum, I rarely post though.

At the time that you were thinking about getting that third dog, I was contemplating getting another dog and then you got the third dog, so I thought, well, I think I should do it too :) Unlike yours though, mine was easy. I got him from the breeder - as a surprise for my kids and my husband - it sure was a surprise for my DH allright }( and he has been the sunshine of our family ever since!

How is your puppy doing? Below is a picture of my puppy by the way.

Take care,

Carola

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1391/5430336/10905683/157383520.jpg
 
Hi,

Just wanted to say sorry about your poor dogs. You sound like a wonderful pet owner, staying up all night and caring for them the way you did.
Your vet sounds kind of inept- it might be time to look elsewhere. I have no veterinary training whatsoever, but I'm an immunologist and can tell you that your dogs probably had some kind of allergic reaction to the advantix treatment. I've never had this problem with my own pets, but my mother-in-law did (with an immunization). Her golden would have had to be put to sleep had she not taken him to the emergency animal hospital when she did. She was also never informed about the risk of reaction when the immunization was given, so unfortunately, you're not alone in this mess.

Hoping everything turns out okay....

cristina
 
You know, Cristina, I am not a wonderful pet owner that you think I am. I feel like the worst person in the world right now for putting my dogs through this.
Actually my 10-year-old lab had not been doing good for a while, which is the reason why I got the puppy, so the other dog wouldn't be so lonely if Jake (my lab) would walk over the rainbow bridge. He had been doing so badly with arthritis that a few months ago he couldn't even get up up, so he would just walk on his front legs, dragging his hind leg behind him, we really thought we would have to put him down. A few months ago I changed his diet to a raw food diet, added vitamins, etc. and we got the new puppy, and what do you know, Jake got his second wind, the diet change and having the challenge with the new puppy made him act like a puppy again, he was jumping around and acting like a normal dog again (I hadn't seen him act this way in many years).

As much as Jake annoys me sometimes because he can be such a big bully (he is just over 100 lbs, he used to be 124 lbs and we got him down the last 6 months), he just walzes over you :) and he can be as stubborn as a donkey. Despite of all of that, I am so forever grateful to that dog for saving my son from being one of the drowning victims in Phoenix. My son was 18 months old (he is now 10 years old and he is fine) when he almost drowned in our hottub, it was only because of Jake going beserk and barking up a storm, running back and forth, that I found Samuel floating in my hottub.

He was doing so well and now I put that poison crap on him and he is just laying around the last few hours, looking at me with those big brown puppy eyes, like he is saying "help me". Tonight I found some big red blotches on his belly that look pretty aweful. He is just laying down, looking at me, wagging his tail a little bit whenever I talk to him, I am just sobbing as I am typing this, what the heck have I done to my dog????? The other question is, which vet am I gonna go to, because I don't trust the vet that I had anymore, as you commented pretty accurately the vet is pretty inept.

I am pretty aware of things and yes, everytime my kids or my dogs got immunizations, I pretty much knew there was a risk. But this is a risk that I am aware of, and I can weigh my option. In this case I wasn't aware of the risk (I know I should have done more research but I just panicked and went for the quick fix) and I didn't do my homework. I know I am not alone in this mess and you were very kind.

Despite of all of that, while I am typing this, I just found out a couple of hours ago that my husband had the house sprayed inside and out while I was at work today. However, just now my son just came to me at almost 11 pm, claiming that a tick was crawling on his t-shirt and indeed it was! I took it off and threw it in the container with alcohol that's been on my kitchen counter for the past several days. Boy, I am so at the end of my rope right now!!!!!!!!!

Sorry for unloading on you all! I just want this nightmare to be over!!!!!!!!!

Carola
 
My dog(s) have never had a reaction to that spot stuff, however, I am concerned with putting a fairly strong chemical on them.... for the dog's health and the health of my children (who cannot resist hugging our dog, even after I apply the chemical and keep reminding them to avoid the wet spot!).

Anyway, I used to use this oral medication called "program" for fleas. It doesn't kill fleas on the dog's coat. The flea must bite... once it does it ingests the program and dies. I did an internet search because I thought this product was discontinued, and found it again. It's available w/o a prescription. I don't know if it also works on ticks. But a product like this could relieve your dogs of the horrible topical reactions that you've experienced with the spot flea product. And you won't feel like your sticking your hand in insecticide every time you pet you dog.
 
Hi Carola,I sincerely wish your babies well and I hope you have luck in finding a good vet.Maybe you could call ahead and find out what their outlook is on the drawbacks of advantixs so you don't end up with another uninformed vet?
I have a black lab/newfoundland.He's 9 years old and even though we live in the woods by a river I have never used insecticide on him.During tick season he is on an 80 ft. zip line,the only time he's off lead is when we are walking every day.I keep a detangling comb by the door and use it whenever he comes back in.It can be time consuming but in nine years David has had only a few ticks.Maybe a quick brush before they came in would help?
By the way,have you seen any type of antidote for the drug on the internet?

Karen
 
> I am pretty sure doctors get kickbacks for useless or harmful medication. However, I think most of them don't really know about the harmful side effects, because the Pharmaceutical Industry likes to keep it under wraps, so the doctors and vets are just getting the pretty brochures and sales presentations. If the doc is not doing INDEPENDENT research, they will only get the spiel from the drug company and they won't harm their own sales.


I know you're upset about your experience, but this statement is really juvenile as well as unsubstantiated. You should realize there are many health care workers on these forums and they would certainly be insulted by this assertion.

I'm sorry your dog had such a bad reaction and I hope he recovers, but are you certain the animals don't already have Lyme disease if you have that much of a tick problem? Perhaps that can explain some of the behavioral issues.

Marie
 
K9Advantix worries me. I've seen too many dogs have a reaction.

I've used Frontline Plus for years and never had any issues.

Colleen
 
"I know you're upset about your experience, but this statement is really juvenile as well as unsubstantiated. You should realize there are many health care workers on these forums and they would certainly be insulted by this assertion."

I don't know what your background is, and if I insulted you, I apologize. We all have our views on numerous issue. I know for a fact that vets and doctors do get incentives / kickbacks on prescribing medications as well as vets getting a substantial part (over 40 %) on prescribing Hills Science Diet. Do I think that most health care professionals maliciously "prescribe" drugs to harm their patients. NO I ABSOLUTE DON'T FOR A MINUTE BELIEVE THAT!

However, I do believe many are so overwhelmed by the load of patients and responsibility that they can't do their own research and believe the spiel of the drug companies. Why do you think doctors kept prescribing Viox a couple of years back although there were already numerous reports out about the harmful side effects of that drug (and Viox is not the only one).

If you are thinking that drug companies don't try to influence doctors and vets and indeed give them incentives, so the drug companies make more money, I think you are the one who is a little ignorant.

To answer your question, no, it is not Lyme Disease, they had blood work done this weekend, the diagnosis was allergic reacton to K9 Advantix.
By the way, symptoms of Lyme disease are not behavioral changes like hidding in corners, barking, growling and red blotches. Even if it were, I doubt that there would be an onset of symptoms in all three dogs that were happy and healthy and less than an hour after applying this stuff, they all go crazy for any other reason but the Advantix, come on, I don't think you really believe that.

Thanks for your advise though, I appreciate it.

Carola
 
Hi Karen,

thanks for the well wishes. It's a good idea to call or ask ahead of time. Sometimes you just don't know what to ask for and you rely on the doctor or vet. Just when you get "burned" you know what to ask for next time. Oh well, we live and learn, right!?

I don't know where those ticks came from. I have had my lab for 10 years and there were never any bugs on him or the Rescu dog that I have had for 8 years.

In the beginning I thought I could control the ticks by just checking the dogs and removing them. But I really freaked out when I found some ticks crawling on the floor. I guess we all fall for the quick fix every once in a while, I am no exception:+

Now I put Dimateacceus Earth on our carpets, fortunatly we don't have much carpet and also put it on the dogs. I spoke to my college roommate who is a naturopathic vet (not in AZ unfortunately)and she recommended the Dimateacceus Earth(I used Flea Away), there also is company called Fleabusters, they are nationwide and supposedly pretty effective. She also recommended to feed the dogs garlic and brewer's yeast (don't use garlic for cats though, it's toxic for them). So I will try that and stay away from pesticides.

I haven't seen any antidote for Permethrin (active ingredient of Advantix), I did give them Benedryl and Bach Flowers Rescue drops. The seem to be doing good, I took them for their walk /run this morning at 4:30 am (it's already pretty hot in AZ)and they were running around like normal dogs again.

Thanks for all the well wishes from everyone.

Carola
 
I know for a fact that vets and doctors do get incentives / kickbacks on prescribing medications as well as vets getting a substantial
>part (over 40 %) on prescribing Hills Science Diet.

I'm not sure where you get your information. I am a veterinarian in MT and while we very occasionally get sample product to dispense, we do not get incentives/kickbacks for dispensing certain products. And as far as Hill's Science Diet pet foods, that is one of our lowest margin products that we sell (meaning that we don't make a HUGE profit on it; in fact, it is almost not cost effective to sell it when people can but it at PetsMart for less.) I realize that you are upset about your experience, and I certainly hope that your dogs are feeling better, but you shouldn't attack an entire profession because of one bad experience.

I personally have not used Advantix; we dispense Frontline which I use on my dogs and cats, as we have ticks where I live. I have never had a problem with Frontline and it is very effective.
 
Hi,

I am not attacking an entire profession, I am sorry if it sounded like it, it was not my intention. I know a lot of vets are working their rear off for our four-legged friends with little pay.

The information about prescription Hills Science Diet is from two friends that are vets who used to practice here in AZ. I don't know how it is in MT, but here in AZ you can't buy Prescription Science Diet at PetsMart, you can get the regular Science Diet but not prescription, you only get it by prescription through your vet office.
I had always wondered why most all the vets that I have been to in the last ten years have been trying to push to buy the product and happened to ask my friends. They told me that not only are there huge mark ups but also that the company that produces Science Diet almost has a monopoly in teaching about nutrition in veterinary schools.

As to incentives, my girlfriend's husband works as a sales rep for a major drug company and I worked in the marketing /sales department of a Pharmaceutical Company, so I do know that certain companies do give incentives, or at least they did when I was working there 15 years ago.
I was talking about drug companies in general as a response to one other poster, I have no experience or first hand knowledge about the veterinarian part of drug companies.

I guess in every profession there are a lot of very good people (and I am sure you are one of them), however, there are also some bad seeds in every profession, including doctors and vets. I would never damn a whole profession, because of bad experience and if it came across like I did, I do apologize.

Have a wonderful day!

Carola
 
Your puppy is adorable!!! I also use Frontline. My dog is allergic to fleas and her hair was actually falling out. She is part border collie and black lab. I will never let another season go by without putting it on her. Good luck with your new addition!!!!:)
 
Your puppy is just too cute!!!

I don't have dogs, but my 2 indoor cats had fleas about 8 months after we moved into this place. It was a surprise! Our vet gave them one pill to kill the current fleas, and one to kill the eggs. The one that goes after the fleas already living on them just about drove my darling little girl crazy!! It was within about 20 minutes of taking the pill, and she could NOT sit still. I thought at the time it was all the fleas diving off that felt strange to her on her skin... but now I'm not so sure!!!

Best of luck!!
 
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