(Please don't flame me) Question on the health ins

L Sass

Cathlete
Without any intention whatsoever of any flames, can someone exlpain to me in simplistic terms, why it's ok for the govt to require all of us to carry auto insurance but not health insurance? Not saying I agree or disagree with either - and certainly not wanting to debate the terms of the bill/law - just want to know how one is different from the other.
 
I agree - if you want to go in to a public hospital's emergency room and get treated, especially for minor crap, then you pay into the system. period. I don't see a difference, but there are plenty of people out there who would gladly drive without auto insurance if they could, too.
 
I think the difference is that driving is a choice. You can choose not to drive and therefore to not purchase auto insurance. Having health insurance is not a requirement to be alive. Sure it's helpful if you get sick - but not necessary.

The massive legislation attached to this good intention will impinge on many of our individual liberties. The IRS has been granted even more regulatory power along with the Department of Health and Human Services. Unfortunately I know a lot of people who currently try to trust government programs for their well being through medicaid and social security disability (not the retirement benefits) who are consistently let down.

I believe firmly those who pushed and ultimately passed this legislation have the best intentions. I just as firmly believe that the government is not the best entity to care for the sick, the poor and the needy. Charities often time are more compassionate, more flexible and more responsive to the poor.

As the OP said, please don't flame me :)
 
Your auto insurance protects other people from your driving mistakes. Health insurance only covers you and you can choose whether or not you want that protection. If you want to die horribly because you don't have health insurance to cover medical treatment, that's your choice. You don't get to choose whether someone else dies horribly because you plow into them with your car and you don't have auto insurance to pay for their medical treatment.
 
Without any intention whatsoever of any flames, can someone exlpain to me in simplistic terms, why it's ok for the govt to require all of us to carry auto insurance but not health insurance? Not saying I agree or disagree with either - and certainly not wanting to debate the terms of the bill/law - just want to know how one is different from the other.

Very VERY good point. When people don't carry health insurance, it burdens the rest of the community, just as when people don't carry auto insurance. Our premiums go up to pay for the uninsured, ER waiting rooms are filled to capacity with flu patients and other non-emergency patients who are uninsured. Tax payers wind up paying that bill. Requiring everyone to have health insurance (and offering tax breaks to those who are burdened by the cost of it), is a wise way to lower insurance premiums (if insurance companies cooperate) and more efficiently run our hospitals. The bill could have included a government option (which I whole-heartedly supported), which would have made it even less of a burden on the uninsured, but that got blasted and now the same people who blasted that (because they were patsies to the insurance companies) are stating that requiring people to have insurance is unconstitutional. How absurd.

Time will tell if this will make the difference it was intended to make. I hope it does. :)
 
Lorrie, I certainly see what you are saying, but like the previous poster said, not having medical insurance hurts only me, not others, unlike not having auot insurance.

On the flip side, I am a medical collector and some of the stupid, BS, CRAP! people go to the ER for is insane. I understand they go because they don't have a regular Dr who will see them because they don't have insurance, but it is still cheaper to go to the Dr for a cold or a pregnancy test than it is the ER. What costs $100 at the Dr, costs $1000 at the ER. And they are wasting time and resources of the ER doc. I guess they figure since the ER can't refuse you that is where they will go. And they know they can always fill out a charity application for a write off.

However - I don't think ANY insurance - government or otherwise - or any charity program should cover hospital services when the hospital is not neccassary. Go to Walgreens and buy a pee stick or some Nyquil and deal with it. Granted, some things can seem like emergencies when they turn out to be nothing, and you can't always tell. However, when I see "wanted a pregnancy test" and the person is on Medicaid it pushes my buttons big time. Because I am paying for that. It is NOT something that requires an ER, and I think that should be out of pocket for the patient, no charity assistance offered.

I also think the insurance companies deciding what is medically nec is also (at times) a bunch of hoos foos. Why does someone in a cubicle who has never met me know more about my condition than myself or my physician?

My 3rd issue is that medical prices never go down. Why is a bottle of pink amoxicilian for DS's ear infection still $60???? And that's with ins. This isn't a new drug, I took it when I was a kid. Why are MRI's still thousands of dollars??? Its not new technology. How come we can't all pay the insurance rates - the hospitals write it all off anyway. Of course some still try to bill the patient, but that's another can of worms.

Yup, the healthcare system is jacked up. I don't pretend to know a solution. But I think making people take the responsibility for their own actions (non ER use of facilities) is a huge part of it. Us Americans have to be the most spoiled, babied nation on the planet. We want it all, we want it free, and we have a very odd sense of entitlement. Whatever happened to integrity, hard work, and EARNING what you have? Some people certainly do need help or a leg up, but it is temporary assistance, NOT a lifestyle. I guess in my line of work, I do see a lot of hardworking people who do want to do right, and a bunch of dead beats who just sponge, and I don't want anymore sponging, and I'm afraid this is what it will turn into. I think if you want any kind of public assistance - insurance, housing, utilities, you have to take a drug test every month. You come up with any trace of anything illegal, alcohol, or cigarettes, and you're out on your behind. If you can afford any of that, you can pay your bills. I also want proof that you have spent 40hrs a week looking for employment. If I have to work 40 plus hours a week to support myself, I expect you to spend that much time looking for a job.

Wow, I got a little rant-y there. Sorry ladies. It is a topic that just pushes my buttons to no end.

Nan
 
I have a couple honest questions that I never bring up because I'm not interested in getting into soundbite contests with people. This seems like a pretty civilized discussion however, so I'll posit them here.

1. A lot of people are crying socialism. But our country (and any mildly industrial modern country) is already saturated with examples of socialism. Roads, schools, sewage, libraries, police departments, fire departments, student loans, etc...

So for those who disagree with this particular bill, where do you draw the line? How much socialism is okay, and why does this particular example push us over the edge? I keep hearing, "this is socialism, and socialism is un-American". I fail to see even a hint of logic in this particular argument.

2. I guess this one is just absolutely ridiculous, but wouldn't it be nice if insurance companies were held to the same standards as the rest of us. You know, those little laws we have about false advertising, binding contracts, theft... If they had to provide the services they charge for, maybe this whole shebang would've been avoided.

This is the main reason I'm in support of the bill. The only insurance I have available has me royally ******. It's basically good if I don't get sick at all or if I get terminally ill. I work 40 hrs per week and am taking 17 credits. All I'm asking for is for someone to sell me a legitimate plan, which I will pay for with my own income, that actually provides the benefits it's supposed to. In this country, a heroin addict can get an all expenses paid free ride plus enough to fund their habit, but I can't get health insurance?
 
I have a couple honest questions that I never bring up because I'm not interested in getting into soundbite contests with people. This seems like a pretty civilized discussion however, so I'll posit them here.

1. A lot of people are crying socialism. But our country (and any mildly industrial modern country) is already saturated with examples of socialism. Roads, schools, sewage, libraries, police departments, fire departments, student loans, etc...

So for those who disagree with this particular bill, where do you draw the line? How much socialism is okay, and why does this particular example push us over the edge? I keep hearing, "this is socialism, and socialism is un-American". I fail to see even a hint of logic in this particular argument.

2. I guess this one is just absolutely ridiculous, but wouldn't it be nice if insurance companies were held to the same standards as the rest of us. You know, those little laws we have about false advertising, binding contracts, theft... If they had to provide the services they charge for, maybe this whole shebang would've been avoided.

This is the main reason I'm in support of the bill. The only insurance I have available has me royally ******. It's basically good if I don't get sick at all or if I get terminally ill. I work 40 hrs per week and am taking 17 credits. All I'm asking for is for someone to sell me a legitimate plan, which I will pay for with my own income, that actually provides the benefits it's supposed to. In this country, a heroin addict can get an all expenses paid free ride plus enough to fund their habit, but I can't get health insurance?

Don't expect a logical answer on that socialism question because 99.99% of the people who say it have no idea what it means. Have you seen those rallies where people are holding signs that say "hands off my medicare" all the while yelling "socialism"? :eek:
 
I have to disagree with a couple of posters who say having no health insurance only hurts you. Well, isn't that enough of a reason? If something happens to you, sure your neighbor's life won't be altered but, you could go bankrupt (medical bills are the #1 cause of bankruptcy) or become disabled and will eventually have to rely on government assistance anyway. What if you have kids or a spouse? Is it fair to them that your illness or injury wipes out the family savings forcing the other spouse to get a second job or go bankrupt which will, again, probably lead you to rely on government assistance (Medicaid, food stamps, disability)? Hey, it can happen.
 
It really makes me angry when people say that charities are better suited to take care of "the poor" who get sick. With all due respect this can only come from someone who has no idea what people are going through when they are diagnosed with a severe illness. The last thing that you should have to do if you get sick or you have child who gets sick, is to have to chase around to find a charity who may cover your medical expenses. And then the question is how much is the medical treatment is and how much the charity can cover. I'd say that's called "rationing" :eek:

What about if (like so many these days) I have insurance but find out that the insurance tries to wiggle their way out because they claim pre-existing condition or your deductibles are so high that it throws you right into bankruptcy. I think for anyone going through a devestating illness, money problems is not very helpful in the healing process.

Not having medical insurance doesn't only hurt me, it hurts the rest of the tax payers because we have to cover the treatment of those without insurance in emergency rooms where the cost is exponentially higher because not only are emergency room treatments more expensive but a lot of times people will go to the emergency room when the crap has already hit the fan and whatever they have could have been easily been treated but now has spun out of control.

But more importantly, I think it hurts us as a society as we are a 3 class society, those you have great insurance, those who think they have insurance and those who are screwed.

I don't see anything wrong with making sure that everyone has health insurance. No one is asking for a hand-out but why on earth can a civilized country like the US not offer health insurance for everyone of their citizens?

That being said, unless we get health care cost under control any health insurance program is going to be a disaster. For the life of me I can't understand why people scream "rationing" if you as much as mention cost regulation. In most European countries the insurance industry as well as cost for drugs, etc. are regulated. For example, the same drug in Germany costs 1/3 or 1/4 of what the price is here, for the same drug.

Unless Americans start to understand that prevention starts with eating right and exercising, and that a drug or surgery should be the very last resort and not the first thing to do, the new health care program (or any other health care program) is going to be a disaster, no matter what. But that would cut into the profits of medical providers, drug industries and medical device manufacturers. So we keep pushing treatments and drugs and people get sicker and the country goes broke.
 
Granted, some things can seem like emergencies when they turn out to be nothing, and you can't always tell.

Nan, I went to Emergency once and the nurse yelled at me for coming, saying I should just go to a family doctor for my cough. Well, I didn't have one, and it was a Sunday so there were no walk in clinics open. Turns out I had pneumonia and it was pretty f***ing serious. She made me feel really bad. I had been coughing so hard I was close to breaking a rib. I had to wait 4 hours in the waiting room because she didn't think I was worth seeing. People die from penumonia, Nan, and even a nurse couldn't tell that I was that sick- how'm I supposed to know, just being a stupid, ignorant patient that is only feeling really bad and doesn't know nothing?
 
By the way, I wasn't defending the whole thing about auto versus health insurance. I was just explaining the rationale behind it. I live in Canada where we all have health insurance and I wouldn't have it any other way.
 
Then why the hell do we bother having governments at all if they can't take care of these most basic, fundamental issues?

The purpose of the Federal Government at its inception was to provide a stable framework in which the people could have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What did that mean then? It meant conducting foreign affairs, regulating interstate commerce, and insuring that local governments did not infringe on the basic rights of the people. The state and local governments were responsible for providing things like law enforcement, basic infrastructure (roads, water, etc), and commerce rules within the state.

For the first 130 years our country existed the Federal government was extremely limited. There was not even a Federal income tax. This limited government allowed the innovations that led to the industrial revolution. If you ask entrepreneurs if the industrial revolution could occur again today under these regulatory environments they would say no.

My most basic arguement against this is not that I think there shouldn't be help for the poor and needy. It's that I don't think the government should be doing it. Go talk to families who have had a child with cancer who received care through medicaid and then go find one who got free medical treatment from a Shriner's hospital. I know both and can tell you that while the family with medicaid was grateful to have it, there experience was fraught with peril and fear because there was a cold, unfeeling government beauracracy making decisions based on rules in place that were not flexible. The family that got care from Shriner's (20+ years ago) is fanatic in their support for that organization becuase of the love, care and support they received while their daughter fought death.

I saw an interesting Q&A on cnn.com about how the new legislation will impact individuals. As I was reading it I noticed that in most cases the response was that the new rules would not necessarily make current problems less of problems. With the exception of being denied coverage (which could have been done without the huge expansion in government and taxes) there is very little that this legislation is going to do better than the existing system. Couple that with a NY Times article from Sunday that interviewed the former head of the Congressional Budget Office who said that the estimates of deficit reduction are all fantasy because the CBO is required to use the scenarios provided by Congress regardless of how unlikely those scenarios are to actually occur. So included in the current estimates are a bunch of new taxes and a bunch of cost reductions in medicare over the next 10 years that will likely be modified by the next group of politicians (I am not pointing out one party over the other, they both do this) that will change the rules to save their own skin in the short term to the country's detriment in the long term.

Bottom line to all of this legislation is that if the costs spiral out of control, which history shows us with every other government program is almost guarenteed, then we are all in for trouble because the US can't afford this. Our national debt is already out of control. We don't have magic money and just like in personal finances spending what you don't will eventually catch up to us.

Sorry for the book!! ;)
 
In our state, the only auto insurance you are required to carry is liability at a certain amount. You are not forced to buy auto insurance unless you have a car, so you really have choice in the matter. If you have a car, you have a responsibility to protect others around in because a car can cause significant damage to others.

The bill. I am on spring break from classes, so of course I spend my spring break reading this health care bill, ha. This bill is like someone sat down, decided we were in a Utopian world that has no money restrictions, and put everything into it. It has a ton of really, really good things to it. It protects people from getting dropped or not getting paid from their insurance, it attempts to regulate care in hospitals and make sure it is good care(I will say why I say attempt in a minute). It attempts to regulate the hospital costs, it addresses wellness in the schools and communities. It overhauls medicare and medicaid, it goes on and on and on.

It does not have death panels, abortion cannot be paid for with federal funds, nor are doctors forced to do abortion.

This bill is major, major change. People are afraid of change.

Sounds great?

My issues are mostly with cost, but also with the federal government trying to control all of this. I also think that people should not be mandated by fines to have health insurance.

I don't believe that there is any way, shape or form that this can lower a deficit. Just getting this thing off the ground is going to cost a bundle. That is if it even can get implemented correctly. It is possible businesses will cut back on people to stay under the level that they will be fined, although there are credits in there to help small business. I know a lot of you have been harmed by insurance companies, but they do employ a lot of people, and insurance companies in all likelihood will fold. And actually, probably the more honest ones that have been good for people will lose, the big guys will probably have enough cash to stay alive, although you bet they will slash jobs to afford this. That may not matter to you, but I see jobs being an issue here.

I think the numbers are skewed, and what they have in place will not pay for the amount of regulation. They are regulating EVERYTHING, which right now with cost running away, could be a good thing, but this all takes money to do, our tax dollars. I also have seen government do a lousy job in regulating something this big, so there attempts are likely to be problematic.

In states and countries that have this type of care, they are financially in trouble. In Massachusetts, the plan has been affective. They have the lowest uninsured rate in the country, at 4.1% by some figures. But, in 4 years, the cost is 3 times what was projected, and they have had to ask for bail out from the federal government. Hawaii tried to put a plan in place for their children, which only lasted 7 months, because many more people than expected jumped on it. This was because there were loopholes, and people who should not have been using it, got on it.

By some studies, Massachusetts is losing business to neighboring state, and they are also having a hard time retaining doctors. The wait times have increased, especially in low income areas, more people served, less doctors. The low income area hospitals are not getting reimbursed from the state like they should, because again, they underestimated the cost of the thing. These hospitals are struggling.

I think they should have gone much smaller. Address the big things that are hurting people, the things you will see roll out in the next 6 months, the things that are very beneficial. Then sit back, re access, determine the next step(driving costs down, which I question this will do, especially taxing medical supplies like they are doing) and how to pay for it more sensibly.

So good luck to all of us, I hope I am wrong about this, and it is all roses and good health care.
 
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Health care should be a basic right, just like our schools are. We had a great school stucture until big business took over the books, testing, lunches and administrations. Health care companies have been raking everyone over for years, profits before people, worse than our government and Wall Street combined.

My DH works for a small business and our premiums are $1100 a month with big deductable and co-pays. He has been locked into this job because of our sons pre-existing condtion. We would never be able to get him insured if he left his current job to open his own business, I'm sure this is the same scenario across the country. My favorite part about this bill is HC companies can no longer deny sick children.
 
I have a question about the pre-existing condition issue. I have been searching everywhere for the answer and can't find it, I guess because I'm looking for more precise wording, as opposed to "people with pre-existing conditions can't be denied coverage."

I have a chronic, incurable condition that thankfully isn't life threatening but certainly makes life miserable when not treated (psoriasis). I have always had health insurance in some form or another, whether it was group insurance through my employer or the one time I purchased individual coverage while I was in-between jobs that offered a health insurance benefit. Almost two years ago, while covered by group insurance, I started a very expensive treatment for psoriasis, and it's the only thing that's worked for me. Obviously, I would be reluctant to give up the treatment (a prescription drug).

However, the job that provides this health insurance benefit - I would gladly drop in a heartbeat. I had reached the point of turning in my resignation notice a few months ago, with the plan of building my freelance business.* The question of insurance weighed heavily on my mind, and I knew that although I would not be "turned down" when applying for individual coverage from an insurance company, any company who looked at my medical history and my underwriting application would immediately slap a permanent exclusion rider on my policy for treatment related to psoriasis, for the life of the policy. It only makes sense that if my policy premiums are going to be $150-$200 a month, and they can see that my treatment for a condition has been costing in the neighborhood of $1,000 a month consistently for the past two years, they would lose money on me if they covered that condition. I'm young and otherwise healthy, so it wouldn't be an issue of being "denied coverage" (very broad and vague terminology, to me). I would just be denied coverage of one single condition, which is clearly the main reason I would want health insurance to begin with, at this time in my life. (I know these things for a fact, because during my two-week notice period, I received my acceptance letter from the insurance company to which I had applied, with the permanent exclusion rider on psoriasis.)

Trying to wrap up my post here...my question is, does anyone know whether this bill will require insurance companies to not only accept those with pre-existing conditions, but actually cover those conditions?

* The "happy ending" to my story was that I didn't leave my job (yet?) because the powers that be offered to make some changes in my position to make it more satisfactory. So, I still have the same insurance coverage...and the same job.
 
From what I am reading, there will be different levels of coverage. They all have to be approved and contain the basic minimum that the Secretary of Health and Human Services office deems fit. These plans will be offered by insurance companies, or if you are not employed,and fit the poverty levels outlined in the bill, you can be under the government plan.

These plans will have different levels of coverage, and have different levels of premiums. So just like today, you shop around, using the internet website that is suppose to be provided by July 1 of this year, and find the plan that fits your needs. Because you have a need for more expensive meds, you may have to pay higher premiums.

The premise that you cannot be turned away means that the insurance company cannot take your premiums, and then at some point decide that your treatment is too expensive and drop you. Maybe one way to understand how this works is to go to the Commonwealth plan's website for Massachusetts. They have a portal website for their plans, and perhaps there would be information of value to you there.

One reason your question cannot be fully answered, is that the rules for the basic coverages have not been written yet. In fact, there are quite a few rules that this bill puts in place that have not been written yet.

Anyone please, jump in and correct anything of the above if I have misunderstood what I have read. The bill is very cumbersome to read, and I am still trying to understand much of it.
 

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