Need input on dead rows..

[naughtoj]

Hi guys..

I am curious if any of you know the answer to a question I have been pondering..

I am trying to do more "pulling" exercises than "pushing" exercises lately in an effort to correct an imbalance in my body. These exercises would include a concentration on the rear delt, rhomboids, lats...you get the picture.

Anyway Cathe does dead rows bending over at a 45 degree angle sending the weights out in front and rowing to the navel. Well, I find when my weight is relatively heavy my arms and back stabilizer muscles end up doing much of the work to just hold the weight out in front of me. Plus, often I don't feel the bulk of the work in my upper back because rowing to the navel doesn't quite get the best "pinch" back there.

While I like these rows, any of you who have actually done T-bar rows on a machine at a gym know the difference. Since your chest goes up against a pad and you are essentially leaning over on an angle with support it almost seems like you need to use your upper back muscles even more to get the weight up there.

I notice that when I do Cathe dead rows I feel alot of work in the stabilizer muscles of my back but not too much in the area of the rhomboids and lats. However, if I bend over at 90 degrees and try to maintain a completely flat back and row from an arm strait down position to just below my chest I seem to feel it much more in the upper back.

Do any of you know if this is technically "safe" to do? It is just like a backwards push-up. I am leaning over and pulling the weight to my chest. It just seems when I can get bent over to a 90 degree angle the exercise is much more specific to the upper back. It seems like it would incorporate more shoulder than the "Cathe" type rows but I can get back so much farther with my arms that I get a really good "pinch".

PLEASE tell me someone knows what I am talking about and that I am not just rambling here!! Anyone experiment with different positions during back exercises to see the difference??

Will appreciate any feedback, especially to the safety of my new exercise..

Janice

 

[briee]

I'm not going to help any, but yes I know exactly what your talking about and you described it well. I too would like to know if someone has some experience here. Francine might, I'd love to hear from Maribeth about several topics, but seems shes vanished for a time...hope she returns soon!!

Briee

 

[kathryn]

I'd worry about the 90 angle, not with deadlifts, but with deadrows, because it may be difficult to keep the back from rounding.

Some things I would try: use dumbells instead of a barbell. You can then change your hand position to palms in or somewhere in between palms back and palms in, and experiment to see if any of these positions better hit the areas you want.

Lower your weight a bit, and stay at about 45 degrees. That angle should actually hit the upper back area pretty well. You might also try bringing the weight up more to just below the chest. Maybe with a wider grip.

 

[FitnessGoddess]

Hey Janice,

Kathryn makes some pretty good recommendations, but I wonder if changing to the dumbbell would just be doing dumbbell rows. I could be interpretting what she is saying incorrectly--it's late, I'm tired!

Anyway, I understand what you are saying about your core stabilizers kicking in when you get heavy. I feel the same way & my core is weak enough with out adding stress to it. I keep my weight light enough to not feel that "pull" (as Kathryn suggested) but heavy enough that I really feel my lats.

I'm fortunate enough to have a cage with pullies & actually have started subbing seated rows for t-bar rows. I've never been able to get a burn doing that & the strain on my stabilizers is just too much. I've also started doing lat pull-downs for something else (but I can't remember which tape & what exercise). I've been feeling my lats a whole lot more since subbing these 2 exercises.

Don't ever compromise on the safety of your exercises. If you feel it isn't safe, don't do it!

 

[purplesky1120]

I used to have the same problems, feeling the rows in my stabilizer muscles and not feeling them in my upper back. When I got the CTX series, I lightened my weight, and followed Cathe's form pointer to widen the grip on my barbell and this made all the difference. I used to think I couldn't get a good back workout unless I was at the gym, because I felt I needed more weight than my stabilizers could support. For me ligher weight and a wider grip has solved my problems. I now feel a good contraction right in my upper back, lats and all. I suppose this solution would work more effectivly for endurance training because of the lighter weights. Hope this helps alittle
Purplesky1120

 

[naughtoj]

I understand what you all are saying. Uggghh...I just HATE lightening my weights. Always feels like I am going backwards!! In the gym, on a t-bar row machine, I can load it with 35#+. But at home with Cathe, I have to always drop down because of the fact that I am sending the weight out and up, you know? (that is the movement that seems to be all core!)

I will do some research as well on this and get back to you all..

Thanks!
Janice

 

[Connie1]

Janice- isn't this exact exercise on Body Max upper? Called bent over rows, I think. Done with a barbell. It's fast. You could slow down the reps.

Also, you could rig up or get a weight bench, and lie down on your chest and hang dumbbells or a barbell down and pull them up. That way you would isolate the lats and rhomboids, without the lumbar stabilizing.

Another thing you could try is regular pull-ups (I can't do 'em) or negatives (that's what I do) on a pole. These work the back muscles quite nicely.

Don't forget pullovers. They might hit what you're looking for. Hope these suggestions help. (?)

 

[Joey]

Do you have Bodymax? On that tape Cathe does the rows bent over at a 90 degree angle, like you described. I stick with the 45 degree angle on those because the 90 degree feels unsafe to me, but maybe if you're extra careful it would be ok.

 

[briee]

Janice, just a quick note, your post has me experimenting, so this morning while working back I put my weight bench at a slight incline and put 20# dumbbells on the floor under the bench. I layed on my stomach (someone up above suggested this) with my chest against the bench and pulled the weights up like a db row. I like this so much better, I believe I could use 30# db next time as those stabilizers aren't taxed and you can really focus on lats/back. Only thing though, I wasn't sure which way to turn my head, not a major deal, but I ended up with my forehead into the pad cause it seemed to pull on one side or the other if I turned my head. Thanks!!


Briee

 

[naughtoj]

WOW!! I didn't know this was on BodyMax. To tell you the truth, I hate the lifting in that one. By that time I am always too tired to do Upper and it seems more endurance based. Guess I forgot it was even in there. I will have to revisit it.

Connie..those are some excellent suggestions I had not thought of. Yes, pull ups are extremely hard. They are my dream as are straight leg pushups exceeding 10 reps! Briee..I KNEW I could count on you to really ponder this one!

I can try all the moves on the bench at home. I really like the fact that your chest is pushed up against something which seems to really isolate the back muscles. Keeps you from using so many other parts to get the weight up and back! At work however I don't have a bench and currently this is where I do all my weight work, so I have to have other exercises as an option that do not require a bench.

Rear delt, trap, rhomboids, and back work always seem to confuse me as far as what muscle is doing the bulk of the work. Like those rear delt flyes Cathe does, with her pinky pointing towards the TV (like a "V") ALWAYS confuse me. I SO MUCH prefer to stand on a 45 degree angle and pull my arms back. But then I believe we are working more rhomboid. For these areas, sometimes I wonder whether I am doing it safely or not so I really should look into a exercise book thoroughly describing how to do them all..

Thanks guys..I knew I could count on you!

Janice

 

[kathryn]

>At work however I don't have a bench and
>currently this is where I do all my weight work, so I have to
>have other exercises as an option that do not require a
>bench.
...
> Like those rear delt flyes Cathe does,
>with her pinky pointing towards the TV (like a "V") ALWAYS
>confuse me. I SO MUCH prefer to stand on a 45 degree angle and
>pull my arms back. But then I believe we are working more
>rhomboid. For these areas, sometimes I wonder whether I am
>doing it safely or not so I really should look into a exercise
>book thoroughly describing how to do them all..
>
>

Another way to support your back is to use dumbbells (I like 'em!) and do rows while seated, with your upper body supported on your legs. You may need to put a pillow on your lap to get the support.

Re: safety and back work. I highly recommend NOT doing the delt flyes with pinkies pointing toward the TV, as this puts your shoulder in a position that favors impingement (pinching). It's similar to the "keep your pinkies up, like you're pouring out a glas of water" cue for delt lateral raises, which is not good either.

You CAN do the rear delt lift while standing at a 45 degree angle. Just make sure your arms are going out in the "v" toward the front or, as you say, the upper back muscles will kick in more.

 

[Francine]

Hey Janice! I wanted to add some suggestions for you and hopefully answer your question on the deadrow and angle positioning.Honestly, I would say your best bet is to do what you are currently doing and constantly experiment with different angles(30-45-70 etc, weights, and techniques. You should also experiment with different grips. Personally, I believe that unless you are power lifting or need type I muscle developement, very few people incorporate as much muscle recruitment as they think, unless they use light weight and even then on the lean foward, the natural 'swing' of the motion (dynamics) has the tendency for you to use more bicep , which in turn, leads you to use too much weight. OK, now you can have the same (and better) dynamics by taking two moderate weight dumbbells and leaning over. Pushing the db's foward and pronating (palms up) and turning them slightly (Palms down) as you come up. (Note: you can play with the grip to hit the back in various ways, including the traps.) If you have an incline bench(or a table) you can do the same thing and take the load and swing out. You will find a better developement method in this as you can use variable grip and distance to hit whatever part of the back you wish. You can push the db's in toward the center plane, follow a natural arch, or hold them shoulder width, each way and each grip will hit the back differently, as will the angle you 'hindge' your body at. Do them slowly to feel exactly where the exercise is working. Doing higher sets first will give you the best indication..., like 15 or 20 reps. When you stop, you will feel the burn, then you can adjust your weight for the program you are on. (this can also be done on one leg and hinging forward on the floor or Bosu) Other great exercises for back: Lat pulldowns, Chin ups and pull ups ! You can get a mop(or stick) and put it on 2 chairs while you are bewteen the chairs and using an underhandgrip(then reversing w/ overhand)pull your body up until your elbows are at your sides and your chin meets the bar and lower your body til your arms and shoulders are fully extended ! Another effective back exercise that I do at home is simply sit on my bench facing the leg curl device and using it as a row machine. Another thing you can try that I do is use light dumbbells, run in place, and do a swimmer's backstroke. This really keeps you in touch with those muscles and gives you a good dynamic stretch as well...not to mention the aerobic qualities. Incidentally, swimming is great for the entire upper body. Concentrate on the full stretch if you swim. It's great for recovery purposes...mentally and physically. Oh yeh, also try isometrics. Just pinch those blades as close as you can (imagine pinching a pencil between them), and HOLD HOLD HOLD!! Then gently release and repeat. Do this every day if you can. You may also consider experimenting with elastic bands. Stand up and pretend you are crank starting a lawn mower.Or sit and double wrap teh bands around your sneaks and do seated rows! (You can also use dumbbells for this exercise.) Let's see...oh yeah, one of my favorite upper body devices is the powerbar. Its just a bar with a tension spring that you squeeze and hold. You can stress a variety of muscles in the upper body depending upon your position. I always vary the tempo and my stance and pretend like I'm bird flapping my wings!! I imagine my arms as legs and relate the exercise to "running". It's very similar to working with cables, only much more versatile in that I can fly around the room!! Oh, games people play!!! AND don't forget---PUNCH AWAY!!! When you are throwing punches, your back muscles are the prime movers!! Wrap those hands and hit that heavy bag with attitude ! As usual, have fun, be creative and expressive, feel and perceive your body in action, and just go with the flow-- body, mind, and soul!

 

[roe]

I tend to agree with Kathryn here and the 45 degree angle to take tension off the spine. What one must consider when lifting weights is the joint action of the working muscle amd the plane of movement it occurs in. Also, note that working the back with dumbbells in an upright position (pinching the shoulder blades together) is not effective because you are not in a gravity resisted position. This is basic Kinesiology 101.

When your elbows are at right angles and in line with your shoulders (using either dumbbells with palms down - pronated grip - or a barbell bent over at 45 degrees) the joint action is horizontal shoulder extension in the transverse (or horizontal) plane; thus, the posterior deltoid will be more involved. Elbows close to sides will target more lats - now the joint action is shoulder extension in the sagittal plane.

The Rhomboids elevate and retract the scapula (shoulder blades) so they get work during shrugs, rows (wide and narrow grips), rear delt work, and t-bar rows to name a few. The key, as Kathryn pointed out, is to lower the weight enough so that you can feel the "pinch" between the shoulder blades.

-Roe