Muscularity--Long Post!
- Thread starter Maribeth
- Start date
kathryn
Cathlete
Maribeth,
I know what you mean. Even our beloved Cathe usually puts flyes after chest presses in almost all (if not all?) her strength videos.
What about a "double pre=exhaust" for the glutes: table position leg lifts (to target mostly glutes) followed by step ups (which bring in quads, but seem to balance out quad/glute work, finished off with squats.
I know what you mean. Even our beloved Cathe usually puts flyes after chest presses in almost all (if not all?) her strength videos.
What about a "double pre=exhaust" for the glutes: table position leg lifts (to target mostly glutes) followed by step ups (which bring in quads, but seem to balance out quad/glute work, finished off with squats.
H
honeybunch
Guest
Maribeth -
Had you ever given a thought to developing your own website? We certainly know you have enough material for one. I'm kind of surprised that you don't have one already.
Had you ever given a thought to developing your own website? We certainly know you have enough material for one. I'm kind of surprised that you don't have one already.
What I would suggest as a "double" pre-exhaust would be to do hands and knees hip extension (primarily glute maximus), followed by hands and knees side leg lifts (primarily glute medius and minimus), followed by squats, lunges or step ups.
Since the quads are the weaker of the glute-quad pair, they don't need any pre-exhaust exercise--they are the limiting factor in squats, lunges and leg presses. But, you can do isolation exercises, such as leg extensions for them following the squat-lunge-leg press portion of your workout. To do the quad isolation first will negate the benefit of the pre-exhaust on the glutes due to the fact that you will have further taxed the quads, limiting the work they will be able to do in the compound exercise. This means that the glutes won't be challenged optimally because the pre-exhausted quads will require that you use a lighter weight when you get to the squats-lunges-leg presses.
Make sense? There are even other variables you can use with pre-exhaust--for example, to really maximally tax the glutes, also pre-exhaust the hamstrings prior to the pre-exhaust for the glutes. Both the hamstrings and glutes perform hip extension, so by fatiguing the hamstrings first, they will be able to contribute even less during the relative isolation exercises for the glutes. You can also use knee position to limit the contribution of the hamstrings in the exercises.
Getting long here!
Maribeth
Since the quads are the weaker of the glute-quad pair, they don't need any pre-exhaust exercise--they are the limiting factor in squats, lunges and leg presses. But, you can do isolation exercises, such as leg extensions for them following the squat-lunge-leg press portion of your workout. To do the quad isolation first will negate the benefit of the pre-exhaust on the glutes due to the fact that you will have further taxed the quads, limiting the work they will be able to do in the compound exercise. This means that the glutes won't be challenged optimally because the pre-exhausted quads will require that you use a lighter weight when you get to the squats-lunges-leg presses.
Make sense? There are even other variables you can use with pre-exhaust--for example, to really maximally tax the glutes, also pre-exhaust the hamstrings prior to the pre-exhaust for the glutes. Both the hamstrings and glutes perform hip extension, so by fatiguing the hamstrings first, they will be able to contribute even less during the relative isolation exercises for the glutes. You can also use knee position to limit the contribution of the hamstrings in the exercises.
Getting long here!
Maribeth
DebbieH
Cathlete
Am I the only one here that is thinking, "My goodness, it is ALL I can do to get thru Cathe's very intense tapes without pre-exhausting them before???"
Your-Friend-In-Fitness, DebbieH http://www.plaudersmilies.de/wavey.gif If You Get The Choice To Sit It Out Or Dance...I Hope You DANCE!!!
Your-Friend-In-Fitness, DebbieH http://www.plaudersmilies.de/wavey.gif If You Get The Choice To Sit It Out Or Dance...I Hope You DANCE!!!
Using pre-exhaust isn't necessary if you get where you want to be through just utilizing compound exercises or if you have no problems with joints. But there are quite a few people who don't see the development they want or who have knee and/or elbow pain with super heavy compound exercises--these are the ones for whom pre-exhaust techniques work well.
Some people are lucky--they develop very easily and/or have no joint problems. Others, of which I am one, will need different methods to take us to the next level without excess wear and tear on the joints--in comes pre-exhaust.
Pre-exhaust is also a good way to vary the workouts. Yes, there are a number of variations to squats, lunges and leg presses, but the variations increase exponentially when you add the pre-exhaust factor.
Maribeth
Some people are lucky--they develop very easily and/or have no joint problems. Others, of which I am one, will need different methods to take us to the next level without excess wear and tear on the joints--in comes pre-exhaust.
Pre-exhaust is also a good way to vary the workouts. Yes, there are a number of variations to squats, lunges and leg presses, but the variations increase exponentially when you add the pre-exhaust factor.
Maribeth
eminenz2
Cathlete
Just a little whine here:
I thought just doing the Cathe tapes, following a chosen rotation for a specific fitness goal, and eating as nutritionally sound as I can would be enough. Now I have to do more exercises (pre-exhaust sets) to make the most of the exercises I do already? Aren't Cathe's tapes enough? How much more can a person do? Help!!!
Tell me I'm doing enough! I want to exercise to live better and longer - not live to exercise better and longer - LOL!
Thanks for letting me rant!
Susan G.
I thought just doing the Cathe tapes, following a chosen rotation for a specific fitness goal, and eating as nutritionally sound as I can would be enough. Now I have to do more exercises (pre-exhaust sets) to make the most of the exercises I do already? Aren't Cathe's tapes enough? How much more can a person do? Help!!!
Tell me I'm doing enough! I want to exercise to live better and longer - not live to exercise better and longer - LOL!
Thanks for letting me rant!
Susan G.
But exercising better is the best way to go.
Again, there are people for whom pre-exhaust won't be necessary--if you're getting everything you want out of your current workout routines and rotations, there's no need to change. The problem is, not everybody does get the most out of a given plan--and there are reasons for it.
Are Cathe's tapes enough? If you are getting what you want with no problems, they most definitely are enough--for some people. Other people may benefit from a different resistance training format.
It is a matter of working all muscles optimally, not just overloading the weakest link in a chain, and achieving that work load without excessively stressing the joints.
Maribeth
Again, there are people for whom pre-exhaust won't be necessary--if you're getting everything you want out of your current workout routines and rotations, there's no need to change. The problem is, not everybody does get the most out of a given plan--and there are reasons for it.
Are Cathe's tapes enough? If you are getting what you want with no problems, they most definitely are enough--for some people. Other people may benefit from a different resistance training format.
It is a matter of working all muscles optimally, not just overloading the weakest link in a chain, and achieving that work load without excessively stressing the joints.
Maribeth
naughtoj
Cathlete
Debbie and Susan...I am ROTFL!!!!
Cathe workouts are enough for me as well and I surely know I am doing enough!! I think what Maribeth is trying to say is, say you are a person that has huge quads but a flat butt. Well, you wouldn't want to keep squatting until the cows came home would you?? You would want to find some way to fully exhaust your glutes AS MUCH as your quads so that the development in those two areas would be about equal. Or possible just add the pre-exhuast gluteal exercises in addition to some other weight training. Hey, my butt never burns when I do lunges or squats (Ok, I kinda get a cramp in that area during low ends) but my quads are ON FIRE. This could be a problem for me. But I don't think it is because I have a nice butt and legs. I would almost be scared to make my glutes more powerful!!
Is this what you are saying Maribeth?? In order to experience the "BURN" in both areas, quads and glutes, that pre exhausts would be in order for me?? This is how I take it...it is not a HAVE TO.
You guys are right though. If my glutes were burnin' as much as my quads I would probably just collapse on the floor!!!
Cathe workouts are enough for me as well and I surely know I am doing enough!! I think what Maribeth is trying to say is, say you are a person that has huge quads but a flat butt. Well, you wouldn't want to keep squatting until the cows came home would you?? You would want to find some way to fully exhaust your glutes AS MUCH as your quads so that the development in those two areas would be about equal. Or possible just add the pre-exhuast gluteal exercises in addition to some other weight training. Hey, my butt never burns when I do lunges or squats (Ok, I kinda get a cramp in that area during low ends) but my quads are ON FIRE. This could be a problem for me. But I don't think it is because I have a nice butt and legs. I would almost be scared to make my glutes more powerful!!
Is this what you are saying Maribeth?? In order to experience the "BURN" in both areas, quads and glutes, that pre exhausts would be in order for me?? This is how I take it...it is not a HAVE TO.
You guys are right though. If my glutes were burnin' as much as my quads I would probably just collapse on the floor!!!
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Sep-18-02 AT 06:31PM (Est)[/font][p]The best answer I can give is--it depends on whether you are achieving your goals or are having problems. If a person is able to achieve the results they want doing just squats and lunges (lower body), then they may not need pre-exhaust techniques. But for the people that are not getting the results they want, there are physiological reasons for why their programs aren't optimal. And for people that have knee pain, the squats and lunges in huge quantities are a bad idea.
If the exercise isn't causing any fatigue in a particular muscle group, it isn't challenging that muscle group enough. If your quads are burning and your glutes aren't, guess which group isn't being challenged? And, even if you are happy with your rear view, if elevating your metabolism is a goal, maximally developing the largest muscle in your body is a very good idea.
I do squats, lunges and leg presses on a twice a week basis, however, doing them in a class setting is never challenging, except to my knees. Doing them in the weight room, using pre-exhaust techniques really smokes my glutes, tightens my tush, beefs up my backside--however you wanna put it--without causing me knee pain and swelling. I get the best of both worlds.
Again, if you're happy with your results, don't worry about this!! Keep up the good work! If you're not getting where you want to go, or are having joint pain as a result of your current training regimen, give pre-exhaust training a whirl.
Maribeth
BTW, this type of training is for anybody who wants to increase muscularity, improve sports performance or enhance functional strength in a specific muscle group that isn't being successfully overloaded via compound exercises.
If the exercise isn't causing any fatigue in a particular muscle group, it isn't challenging that muscle group enough. If your quads are burning and your glutes aren't, guess which group isn't being challenged? And, even if you are happy with your rear view, if elevating your metabolism is a goal, maximally developing the largest muscle in your body is a very good idea.
I do squats, lunges and leg presses on a twice a week basis, however, doing them in a class setting is never challenging, except to my knees. Doing them in the weight room, using pre-exhaust techniques really smokes my glutes, tightens my tush, beefs up my backside--however you wanna put it--without causing me knee pain and swelling. I get the best of both worlds.
Again, if you're happy with your results, don't worry about this!! Keep up the good work! If you're not getting where you want to go, or are having joint pain as a result of your current training regimen, give pre-exhaust training a whirl.
Maribeth
BTW, this type of training is for anybody who wants to increase muscularity, improve sports performance or enhance functional strength in a specific muscle group that isn't being successfully overloaded via compound exercises.
My understanding is that pre-exhaust sets are an advanced technique, and that advanced techniques are not supposed to be used in every workout, otherwise overtraining happens.
Also, I'm pretty sure that Cathe knows about pre-exhaust sets (she actually dose use them in Slow and Heavy legs). When making exericse videos, Cathe is trying to appeal to the majority, and not everyone would want to use pre-exhaust sets. It seems to me that this is something one might use for a lagging body part, not for a whole workout to be performed on a regular basis. People can always add extra exercises where needed to their video workouts.
Sharon.
Also, I'm pretty sure that Cathe knows about pre-exhaust sets (she actually dose use them in Slow and Heavy legs). When making exericse videos, Cathe is trying to appeal to the majority, and not everyone would want to use pre-exhaust sets. It seems to me that this is something one might use for a lagging body part, not for a whole workout to be performed on a regular basis. People can always add extra exercises where needed to their video workouts.
Sharon.
S
srmohler
Guest
I was wondering if it would be a good idea to modify the standing pre-exhaust sections of S&H Legs to
be table work? Would this achieve what you guys are talking about? I know that I don't feel much in
the butt during the S&H leg work, so maybe this would increase the work load....
Thanks,
Sandi M
be table work? Would this achieve what you guys are talking about? I know that I don't feel much in
the butt during the S&H leg work, so maybe this would increase the work load....
Thanks,
Sandi M
Sharon,
Pre-exhaust techniques are relatively advanced, but then so are squats and lunges. Virtually everybody will benefit from pre-exhausts because they are focused on working the strongest of the muscle groups to be trained later in the compound exercise section.
From what I understand, the exercises referred to as pre-exhaust exercises on S&H don't meet the true definition of the technique--pre-exhaust exercises, by definition, are relative isolation exercises.
Overtraining is much more likely to occur when people try to maximally overload the strongest muscle group with compound exercises--for example, the quads frequently poop out long before the glutes, leading to patellar tendonitis, bursitis and patellar maltracking when someone really tries to challenge the glutes via squats, lunges and leg presses only.
In clinical practice, I see this quite often. You can only effectively overload the weakest link in the chain. Again, for people who are satisfied with their results, there's no reason to change their program, other than for variety. But for people who don't feel their program is optimal, either from a strength/muscle development standpoint or from the signs of an overuse/joint pain standpoint, pre-exhaust exercises can be just the ticket.
Maribeth
Pre-exhaust techniques are relatively advanced, but then so are squats and lunges. Virtually everybody will benefit from pre-exhausts because they are focused on working the strongest of the muscle groups to be trained later in the compound exercise section.
From what I understand, the exercises referred to as pre-exhaust exercises on S&H don't meet the true definition of the technique--pre-exhaust exercises, by definition, are relative isolation exercises.
Overtraining is much more likely to occur when people try to maximally overload the strongest muscle group with compound exercises--for example, the quads frequently poop out long before the glutes, leading to patellar tendonitis, bursitis and patellar maltracking when someone really tries to challenge the glutes via squats, lunges and leg presses only.
In clinical practice, I see this quite often. You can only effectively overload the weakest link in the chain. Again, for people who are satisfied with their results, there's no reason to change their program, other than for variety. But for people who don't feel their program is optimal, either from a strength/muscle development standpoint or from the signs of an overuse/joint pain standpoint, pre-exhaust exercises can be just the ticket.
Maribeth
Sandi,
Table work would be a PERFECT example of a pre-exhaust exercise. It is a relative isolation exercise which can be used to fatigue the glutes before working them along with quads in a compound exercise such as a squat.
Try them and let me know what happens. Remember to use as much external resistance as you can with good form and what I would suggest is to alternate legs, doing 2-3 sets of 10-15 reps in your table work, then go to your compound standing exercises.
Good luck!
Maribeth
Table work would be a PERFECT example of a pre-exhaust exercise. It is a relative isolation exercise which can be used to fatigue the glutes before working them along with quads in a compound exercise such as a squat.
Try them and let me know what happens. Remember to use as much external resistance as you can with good form and what I would suggest is to alternate legs, doing 2-3 sets of 10-15 reps in your table work, then go to your compound standing exercises.
Good luck!
Maribeth