Love, stress and money

Bobbi

Cathlete
Hi, everyone! This is going to be the vent of the century! I know I have made my love my my mother as clear as a glass window she might have cleaned. Hers are so clean you could walk through them thinking no glass is there. Many moons ago I mentioned that a few of my siblings use my mother for financial aid which she always gives. Two get into small scrapes and it never amounts to much. One of those two always pays her back, the other just avoids her. Then there's that third sister, the one who lives with her with her now 19 year old son and has taken advantage of her to such an extent that 10 of us have been working together to get her out of my mother's house along with her tragically drug addicted son once and for all. My sister has borrowed heavily but much worse helped herself to my mother social security number and gotten credit cards in my mother's name and my nephew is addicted to methadone and wrecked cars, been in and out of jail and on off tether for several years now. We have tried and tried to get our sweet mother to act to end it but because she is so very capable of taking care of her finances under normal circumstances we have been carefully trying not to upset her to get this done. And we all know that to a certain extent she is responsible for allowing it to happen because she cannot not bail out one of her children in trouble. But, the actions taken fall under the heading of Elder Abuse, taking financial advantage and some emotional abuse of an elderly lady. My sister has struggled, unable to manage her money affairs and we would have sympathy for her bt she has hundreds of pair of shoes and so many clothes and buys her son only the best as well all the while never making her own ends meet and knowing my mom is there to help her time after time. She has dark moods and will vent to my mother whenever we insert ourselves and sometimes I she vents at her.

We cannot act to have this sister prosecuted because that would be devastating to our mother although she certainly deserves it and bringing peotective services in would make her unhappy as well so we've been stuck between the rock and the hard place but ten of us have been pow wowwing to get something done. I feel like I am going to go ccrazy from stress! I was talking to my brother yesterday, the 5th of 5 calls from sibs, and my neighbor observed it was a good thing I was wearing no shoes or I'd have worn them out by then since I paced and rambled on and on. I am quite hoarse as well. I know you'd all find it surprising that I can talk a blue streak at times since I'm so quiet by nature. ;)

As I mentioned, my nephew is on tether for the umpteenth time, and so my mother has no answering machine since he has to blow into some sort of a breathalizer unit and check in at various times of the day. My rather shy mother has been picking up the phone since she cannot have an answering machine and screen her calls and found out that ANOTHER credit card had been opened in her name and the dollar amount is huge. This kills me because she and my dad finacned our delightful Christmases for years and as she had fewer and fewer children she saved and managed her money so that she had pristine credit and she pays all of her (legitimate) credit card balances in full on a fixed income that is really quite small compared to the incomes of her children who have not taken constant advantage of her. AT this point, my brohter informed me yesterday, we need not worry that anyone could get a dime's credit so damaged is her good credit but there's the problem of keeping her from givng these creatures another cent. She is tiny, at 80 pounds and falls ill with stomach troubles and takes to her bed. I know this is are sheer nerves and her Golden Years are far from golden and she deserves utter happiness and no stress whatso ever. She has had that and survived it and yet it goes on and on and she herself has made it hard for us to get in there and do what needs doing. She has more than enough money and a very valuable property so it's not financial ruin but the principle that, my sister still barely takes responsibility for her actions and feels she has taken care of my mother for years and is somehow entitled and I am beside myslef iwth anger and it would further upset my mother if any of us really let her have it and if I end up going back there as I may have to since we are inserting ourselves between the two of them until we get her out, I have to essentially pretend that I don't think she's scum and act accordingly. Personally, I think jail would be perfect, three hots and a flop and she could be near her son the next time he goes in. They coud both learn a valuable skill for when they get out and have to really face life without being parasites. And of course, there's the exorbitant debt that my mother ends up being responsible for unless my sister hits the lottery and pays it off.

Ten of us, including the two of us here in Arizona, have gotten together to intervene, asking our mother to sell her valuable property with it's beach rights to lake Michigan and build a house on 2 acres with two bathrooms and go into it with no room and boarders to which she has mostly agreed. The tricky part is getting this perfectly competent woman to give POA to one of us so that no one can get a cent out of her without the consent of that person. It is an ugly mess. My ister has rationalized and justified her behavior and badly overindulged her son on my mother's nickle. My mother has had no boundaries and finds it's nearly impossible to not bail her children out time and again and would be beside herself if legal action was taken though I believe it should be taken and my sister and her son are virtually unable to make it out there in the real world. The one thing that is certain is we have dragged our heels far too long and must act in her own best interest.

The intervention was ugly and my sister was told it was done and was offered two months rent to get herself and her son out of our mothers home immediately. She declined, refusing to take anything from any of us and was told that was not an option. My mother has agreed to sell and get a new home but is still wavering a bit. I know she has to be relieved and yet she does not want her independance takenout of her hand and should have the right to give to her children as she sees fit but has such a hard time saying no when no is what she both needs and wants to say that it is very difficult to get this taken accomplished. Besides, we have allowed it to go on too long! I fell horrible ashamed about that. And yet everytime I have decided I would take actions through the State of Michigan myself, I have been reluctant because it would upset my mother as badly as seeing tens of thousands of dollars of debt wracked up in her name without her permission.

The proverbial fan has been hit and I am waiting to see if it's offf to Michigan I go and I could use a valium the size of a hockey puck! I have been learning a great deal about boundaries myself lately and while I am proud to say I am much like my mother, being too passive will get you into a world of hurt. I think my sister needs to be held accountable and I need to deal with my anger toward her without hurting my mother. My mother needs to be protected without being made to feel incompetent and this whole mess has to be ended and repaired as best we can repair it but it that seems such a tall order, how do we do it? What is wrong with these people? And how can we fix this without hurting our mother and isn't it really too late for that?

Yesterday was a long day! :(

I hope all of yours today is much better, very happy, in fact. And mine too!

Vent over.
 
What a mess you and your siblings have been dealing with. My heart goes out to you all. Family issues are so difficult. Bobbi, you and your mother are in my thoughts and prayers.
 
Bobbi, I am so sorry. What a difficult situation!

I'm a little unclear on what the POA and the new house can do for your mother. Your mother doesn't need the consent of the person with the POA to do anything under the law. (Of course, your sister doesn't need to know that). And the new house sounds large enough to house your sister and her son. How about a 1-bedroom apt? Where there is no room for your sister, period?

In any event, there are no easy answers. All of the things your sister deserves would obviously upset your mother. I wonder if you could take your mother to an appointment with an elder law attorney who could tell her that she is being abused? Then it wouldn't be coming from you and your siblings, but from a third party. Just a thought.

My thoughts are with you,

-Nancy
 
Hi Bobbi,

My heart is breaking for you. To your mom, the evil child is like the biblical lost sheep. She'll never abandon her and always leave the light on. I see why you're so upset. You have only your mothers best interests at heart; your sister cares only for herself. It's such a shame.

I think Nancy made a good point. I would try to arrange something with an objective 3rd party.

Bobbi, please know you're in my thoughts and prayers. I don't envy your situatation, and I've read enough of your posts to know that you're a wise, warm, and lovely person. I think your mother knows that about you too.

Michele
 
i wish i could give advice but all i can give is hugs. but i will say that drug addicted folks do thrive on being "babied". when my mother and grandparents stopped babying me and left me to fend for myself, i eventually found my moment of clarity and i stand where i am today. but being a parent i know its hard to turn away your child when they are having a hard time, but its no excuse for the behavior of your sister and her son. shame on them and what comes around goes around, i highly believe that.

kassia

When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be
disappointed to discover they are not it -- Bernard Bailey
 
Thank you all so much! Support and hugs and thoughts and prayers are all I really need. We all know what we need to do and should have done much earlier but regrets are pointless. We need move forwarda and deal and that's what we are doing. We'll set this right and in the end it will all work out, I'm sure. I just have been feeling so stressed, it is crazy! Today I ave a date wtih the whole 2nd grade class to do obstacle course training with firefighters so my husband says I should just enjoy the handsome, buff firefighters and allow myself to be distracted by theat. :) He forgot to tell me to enjoy the second graders.
Bobbi http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/chicken.gif "Chick's rule!"

Tell me, what it is you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? -Mary Oliver
 
>Today I ave a date wtih the whole 2nd grade class to do
>obstacle course training with firefighters so my husband says
>I should just enjoy the handsome, buff firefighters and allow
>myself to be distracted by theat. :)

oohhh will you be busting a sweat with these buff fireman. i would try to go head to head with them. LOL

kassia

When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be
disappointed to discover they are not it -- Bernard Bailey
 
Bobbi
How sweet your DH is! Perhaps he thinks there is something in it for him?
All kiddingaside, you are in my thoughts and prayers. And, I will miss you laterthis week. If I ever get to AZ again, we will make it work.

Judy
 
Bobbi,

I'm so sorry to hear about this! If it helps, though it may be hard, the decision to take legal action to stop your sister may be the only option. After my mother died, I ended up being raised by my grandparents (father remarried, stepmother ran both myself and my sister out of the house within 6 months!). For all purposes, my grandparents were my parents.

My father and stepmother are horrible with finances, and have managed to rack up considerable debt. My grandparents, in contrast, had saved quite a bit of money. Before he died, my grandfather had his joint will changed to divide his property 3 ways, between my father, my sister and me. However, after he died, my stepmother and father started 'working' on my grandmother-- being extra nice, trying to get sympathy for their situation, etc. And it worked!!!!! She changed the will, leaving everything to my father with the request that he give my sister and I a specified sum from the estate. My sister and I, who both lived far way at the time, couldn't believe it when we found out. More out of anger than anything, after my grandmother's death, I consulted a lawyer to see if I could sue, but was told it was a dead end case.

My father and stepmother preyed on her feelings to get the money. That sort of behavior makes me sooooo mad-- all this to say, I understand where you are coming from.

Hugs your way and I hope all is well soon,
L
 
Oh Bobbi! Chiming in with Nancy...

Hi sweetie girl! Ohmigosh, what you and your tiny mama and sibs have been through. It's really awful stuff and my heart aches for you.

I'm chiming in here with Nancy -- I think we see the situation similarly, being lawyer gals and all. My first thought was that I didn't see what the POA and new house/sale of property would gain your mom -- at least that couldn't be accomplished through other means. I think Nancy's suggestions are great -- I love the idea of an elder issues-expert attorney, and I'd like to see you and your siblings consult with that attorney SEPARATELY from your mom; this lawyer should be able to suggest some options for how you can safeguard your mom's money and her dignity and independence. I also like the idea of encouraging your mom to move to someplace just big enough for her -- perhaps in one of the newer, really cool planned senior communities. Don't laugh -- there are some that I would move to in a heartbeat! :)

Here's another idea -- echoing Nancy's suggestion that you recruit a neutral third party to talk to your mom. What if you, your sibs and your mom speak to a clergyman, if you've got a trusted family pastor who knows the history and issues? My experience personally has been that a good clergyman is also a good counselor, and sometimes can be the very best "messenger" to recruit when you need to have a loved one apprised of this kind of distressing truth. Your mom needs to be told, gently but by someone from whom she'll hear it, that she needs to practice more self-protection and some "tough love" (to use a really overused and trite term, but for lack of a better one.)

Your mama is clearly enabling your sister and probably knows it, but feels herself to be between a rock and a hard place herself. It's so hard, Bobbi -- I can easily see myself making the same series of mistakes for one of my boys. If they were to take a wrong turn and end up going down a life path full of poor choices as it appears your sister (and her son) have done, I could slide into an enabling pattern without any awareness at all -- I'm sure I could rationalize it all. All of which is just to say that I can see very clearly how intractable the situation is for you all. Thank God that your mom has 10 children out of 11 who are on positive paths and who are united in your desire to protect her.

One last thought. If your mom is just insistent upon continuing to do SOMETHING financially for your sister and nephew, I'd investigate (with that elder attorney) helping her set up a carefully-constructed trust for their benefit. Trusts are great (and Nancy can tell you a lot more about this) because you can limit the ability of the beneficiary to receive the funds in just about any way that you want to. It's a great way to force some accountability onto someone who always seems to let the borrowed money "detour" into some unplanned use.

I hope you all (your sister and nephew included) find a positive solution, sweetie, and my thoughts are with you too, right there by Nancy's. :) Hugs!!!!!!!!

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/sport/sport-smiley-003.gif Kathy S. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/sport/sport-smiley-001.gif
 
Don't beat yourself up for not intervening sooner. Intervention is extremely difficult and sounds very complicated in your poor mother's case. It's obviously not too late to help her out and it's great you and your siblings are working together.

I agree with Nancy and Kathy about an attorney who specializes in seniors. I also think a 3rd party (whether or not it's the attorney) is a great idea.

I'm sure you're relieved you took some steps. Best of luck and hugs to you!
 
My dearest Bobbi: that is a horrible situation. I am in a fairly similar one myself. My father is the mooch and my poor grandmother is the victim. It is great that your other siblings are able to agree with you and be supportive. I don't have any legal advice, but might i suggest a few angles you may consider...? It sounds like the only way to solve your problem(and your mother's problem) is to take your sister and her son out of the picture for good. Since you have said that you feel it would give your mother great stress to see your sister or nephew be prosecuted maybe you could do it in a way that doesn't involve elder abuse. Do you know if your sister has filed taxes consistantly? One of you could anonymously report her to the IRS for tax fraud....she could be investigated, busted and put away...unless your mother feels compelled to bail her out....ok, maybe that would not work.....but my point was that if you could get the sister and her problem child in trouble for things not related to your mother...maybe your mom would not feel responsible or stressed out about it. Stealing someone's SS # and getting credit cards with it is a serious crime. Maybe you could go with that approach. If your sister is anything like my louse dad, there are all sorts of things you could report her for and cause lots of havoc in her life to keep her "distracted".

It is definately a good idea to speak to a professional about your options and an even better idea to get her moved to a place that your sister can't follow.

I remember you posting about this in the past and i know it is an endless, painfull trainwreck to watch. It is miserable to be in the middle that way. I hope you find some answers. I hope your mother is out of that position soon.

I also hope you had fun with the firemen:p

lots of hugs and vibes of peaceful resolution~

jes;-)
 
I read your entire vent, Bobbi, and I am so sorry. I really hope that things get better for you, and the mess gets straightened out. I think you are making the best decisions that you can, and your sister really needs straightening out.
 
Sorry, Bobbi. I know you are someone who doesn't need advice, just support. You're smart enough to be able to figure it out yourself. But please forgive me, as it is human nature to want to help with suggestions. I'm trying to learn this with my new DIL. She is smarter than most people, and hesitates to tell anybody anything because then she has to listen to all the advice, which just wastes her time. She's usually several steps ahead of us.

So, here are your hugs: {{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}
and that's all I have to say. ;)

-Nancy
 
Ah, you guys are so wonderful! :) The problem of taking legal action lies with my mother herself and with Gloria and the interesting relationship they have because Gloria moved in with my parents when her son was two and always lived with them with no rent or utilities but she never appreciated how lucky she was to be a single parent under such circumstances. My father was the only father figure Tyler ever knew and they loved each other dearly. Gloria struggled from the beginning but was well taken care of and she could indulge her son and she smoothed every problem that arose for him as many parents do. When my dad died she took up some of the roles he played around the house and that is one of the reasons she feels entitled in the way she does. My mother helped her willingly but there came a time when she began to use my mothers credt cards and to pay her back but her needs outgrew her wants and at some point she overstepped the bounds and started getting cards without permission and bit by bit that got out of hand. Time and again we tried to get our mother to put a stop to it by realizing it was wrong and would lead to THIS.

Long ago as a sixteen year old, she had gotten into their savings and taken money and even written checks forging my mother signature but she was not taken to task as she should have been, giving her the message that she could get away with it. While my dad lived it was small stuff but he had always indulged her and she was the type to take advantage of it.

My mother would never take legal action against her and while she was disappointed, resentful and upset, she believed that Gloria would eventually pay her back and it would be okay. Our hands have been tied for years because she would never allow us to act against Gloria in any meaningful way and on one dreamed it would come to this.

My oldest brother called me and he said he refuses to take on POA because when push came to shove if Gloria came to my mother and requested help, my mother would give it and should have the right because, 83 and tiny and under stress, she is mentally quite capable of handling everything quite beautifully if her children would take on most of the responsibility for their own care and feeding :) but she is going to help her children in need because that's what she does.

Many years ago after raising that huge family and many dogs over the years, we had dobermans and pekingese growing up as well as many mutts, my mom had said she never wanted another dog because that can be like having kids and they ruin carpets and smell the joint up. When my dad died, Gloria wanted a dog for Tyler and she got one. We went to battle over it because my mother was very clear on that. It was an very nasty exchange with some of us adamantly saying no way and others staying out of it altogether and in the end, Gloria got the dog and my mother takes care of that fat grouchy peke like a child. that sent a message to all of us to offer support but to be careful about it since Gloria lived with our mother and go special consideration based on that. My mom hates conflict and would take on the dog to keep the peace. She'd rather deal with another pet and ruined carpets and dog smells than just put her foot down and say no, no more dogs. And she loves Lacey to death. :) This started out small, borrowing money here and there though Gloria was so blessed to have a nice home, no bills to speak of and yet considered herselp a single parent sturuggling to raise a child alone. Her ex was a dolt. Gradually her wants outgrew her needs and she went from borrowing a credit card which my mother would pay off and she could then pay back, interest free, to convncinng herself it was okay to just get one for herself with I am sure the intention to pay it off but of course she never did and it grew and grew until it became a very large debt. The animosity that hashas also grown between Glorai and the rest of us who have taken care of ourselves or been taken care of as in my case, is between many of us and Gloria is also very distrurbing to my mother. She would give the shirt off her back to any of us but for most of us, she never had too. I believe prosecution is what she deserves but she is not all bad, she is dreadfully incapable of being a single parent under the normal circustances one might face. She has never had to be.

I find it heartbreaking that my mother will sit and recall using credit to give us many things, and we grew up modestly but certainly wanted for nothing, until the time when her family became smaller and smaller and she could build her savings to quite a comfortable one and she paid each credit card balance in full because she was not paying interest when it was not necessary. She is a whiz with her money and her income is fixed and small compared to nearly all of her children. Boy, do I wish I had gotten that quality from her. :)

My brother said don't worry about anyone being able to get a dime's credit now, even my mother herself because her credit is ruined and that infuriates me to no end. She has always safeguarded her Discover card and what ever others she has, which is why Glorai took one or more of the many pre-approved offers that arrive in the mail daily and got her own cards in my mom's name. Of course, she always intended to use them and pay them off but that never happened and it grew and grew until with my methamphetamine addicted nephew on tether and required to check in daily, she picked up the phone and found out she had a $15,000.00 debt in her name. Her property with beach rights is very valuable so selling it and buying those two acres and building a new home in which he will live without boarders but with plenty of room for the two of us who come and stay each summer will afford the opportunity to start fresh and she will have quite a large amount of money because of the large influx of summer residents who are snapping up these properties which are more and more difficult to come by. Oprah has a place not far from there as does Roger Ebert. :)

With 7 or 8 siblings present, Gloria was told she was being given two months rent and was moving out with her son. She declined the offer and was told she was not being asked but told and later she wnet off and vented useing horrible language and telling the rest of us to stay out of her life and another borther happend to call and hear this vent and reported it. Both Gloria and my mother said it was not directed AT my mother but it is still most unacceptable IMHO! I am not quite cerain what the total debt is but we are forcing ths now and agreeing to take no legal action which only my mother could do and the money from the sale of her property will pay off all debts or it will come from her estate and Gloria will have pre spent her inheritance and then some, getting off scott free as she has since she first overstepped those boundaries years ago.

Using POA as a means in which to prevent reoccurance of such things is rather like locking the barn after the horse has been stolen and is another issue that we are not in full agreement on. My brother Randy is the best candidate but he won't do it because he feels that Mom will be there for any child in need in a moment and she will. She's like her mother who would give away her last dollar if she felt it was truly needed. We want to protect her but we want her to have the power to do with what she will her own resources since she is quite capable of doing so. There's a rather biziarre relatinship between my moehter and Gloria, very co-dependant and they are both responsible for where it is at. There will be no prosecution no matter how many of us feel it is what she deserves and she even has some good qualities. She'd take a bullet for our mother but is blind to how she has taken advantage of her and never intended that it should get so out of hand but has had such dreadful legal and emotional problems iwth her son, who has the potential to be a very wonderful sucessful young man except that he's an addict and has been bailed out time and again and is incapable of reazlizing his potential unless he is helped and both of them are forced to take responsibilty for actions and addictions and to stop and find a better way. It's a total mess. I was largely out of the picture this past year because I had my own responsibilties to attend to but now I am going in there and offering my presence as support. Gloria loves my mother deeply but she's been allowed to overstep the bounds and she is being stopped now. My moterh internalizes her stress, and takes to her bed with and hates when we all go to war and that's what this is. We are intervining as best we can but we do not have her full co-operation and cannot use the agencies and the law unless Mom is willing and she's not. There's also the problem of having her live alone when she never has in all her life. What could have been a beautiful thing between Gloria and Tyler and my mother has gone very wrong and both of them are to blame for that. My father also enabled and indulged both Glorai and Tyler but she would never have gone quite so far when he was alive.

I could have great sympathy and compassion for Gloria but I am angry and my loyalty is to my mother but I can see how she was made to feel entitled and how it all got out of hand and I am sorry she is 44 and depressed with a drug addicted son and a huge amount of stress but she could have made better decisions if she had just put need before want and never taken more than she was entitled to to bail herself out. I think she feels like she at times had no choice because of the legal and medical ramifications of Tyler's health; he is asmhatic adn then he became addicted and she's been in there fixing things for him for years ast as she has had things fixed for her. It's a vicious circle and it's ended badly but it is ending and now we must all face the consequences of those actions and our inaction until now. On the one hand, I believe my mother is relieved and accepting of our intervention and on the other, she is upset that she may have control taken from her to protect her from someone who loves her but went too far never intending to. She could tell us all to stop and we would. She wants and needs this but she also has a deep bond with Gloria and perhaps even realizes how she too must take responsibility for the mess since there were times when we all tried to stop it but she couldn't quite let us. She hates in fighting among her children and it's unavoidable now. I don't want her alone and she is surrounded by many of her kids who check on her daily but she is used to having someone with her and it's going to be an adjustment being alone after all these years. Gloria is working hard now, not spending frivoulously and paying her back bit by bit but she can never take on her full debt if whe lives to be a hundred.

Tyler is in deep trouble. He has seizures from the drug use and there are huge debts from that and he is in and out of trouble with the law. They are facing a tough life and they are extremely co-dependant. They no longer have our mother to fall back on. There are no winners here. We just do the best we can to safeguard the dear little woman and try to move on, hoping Tyler and Glorai get it and fix it as only they can and that our mom will let them!

I can offer moral support to my mother but I also go into my sisters territory and though I am equally entitled to be there, there's tension created because it has been her home all these long years ad mine is here. And then there is my anger toward my sister and a sense of sadness and even sympathy if I allow that. I feel broken-hearted but will not sit on my hands any more. And the time I can give this being back there is short. I have my own family to think of. And honestly, I am a paper tiger. :) My sister Jan is tking POA if my mother lets her and she suffers no fools gladly or otherwise but she must still contend with that feisty side of our mother, who has faced adversity and difficulty the likes of which none of us, even old Gloria ever have known and survived with a beautiful heart of gold and a kind and gentle nature and generous spirit with no bitterness, only stress and sorrow which is perfectly natural under the circumstances which have gone too far. I am glad this is resolving but we have much work to do and we have to do it and not make her feel we think she is incompetant, not to make her fell she is less than the amazing woman she has always been. Getting boundaries at 83 requires her co-operation and it must be done well! Lord help us do this and do it as painlessyly as it can be done. It's a tll order. :)

I'll let you know how it goes. Please keep those thoughts and prayers coming. I love you guys so much!
Bobbi http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/chicken.gif "Chick's rule!"

Tell me, what it is you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? -Mary Oliver
 
Bobbi,

Stay strong, girlfriend.

I know I talk about boundaries a lot here on this site and to people I mentor at work. Over extending oneself appears to be a kind and generous thing but in the long run can cause much more harm than good!
 
Bobbi,
I sent you a PM. To the extent there is any advice in it, please ignore it. }(

-Nancy

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{BIG HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
 
More {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Take care and know that people are praying for you and yours.

Michele
 

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