I need doggie advice (long)

fit_fairy

fit_fairy

Cathlete
I am at my wits end. In tears right now. I have 2 precious dogs- an 11 yo silky terrior and a 6 yo yorkie. They are trying to kill each other literally. IIRC it started a couple of years ago after the silky was ill (almost died) and returned home from the hospital. The yorkie (who I thought would be happy to see her playmate) attacked her. Well ever since they have these fights. They are getting quite serious. I know they are fighting for the alpha position and all but someone is gonna get hurt. I have already been bitten several times breaking them up. I have had the one dog on doggie prozac which didn't help. I am trying behavior modifications and I know these things take time, but I am so afraid one of them is gonna get hurt (badly). My vet says they learn very little about these sorts of things and is referring me to a behaviorist specialist. Things seem to be getting worse. Meantime, I have been watching the dog whisperer and trying to incorporate a few things. I can not play with them or show affection to one without the other getting jealous and starting a fight. Does or has anyone here had this problem and dealt with it sucessfully? I am just heartbroken over this. These are my children. Of course I know Cesar Millano (the dog whisperer) says don't treat them like humans and I really don't, but I sure love them to death ;( ;(

thanks for letting me vent!
Catherine

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Catherine, So sorry to hear this is happening. I own a Grooming shop and one of my customers had the exact same problem. She owned 2 yorkies. Hers fought so bad that they did almost kill each other, it was aweful. She ended up having to give one of her dogs to her sister (luckily). She was so upset, because they too were her babies and then she had to decide which one to give away (very hard). Weird that these yorkies got along great with different non terrier dogs in the households, just not each other. She was told by her vet that this happens alot with terriers, especially yorkies. I hope that you can find some way to solve this. But, you don't want them to hurt each other, because they really can do some damage. Seriously, I hope you have good luck with this and can solve it.
 
Janie, thank you so much for the hugs, they mean alot.

Sunnyside, I fear that I may have to resort to that. Unfortunately, the only family member I have that would even consider taking one of mine would be my sister and she has a yorkie that both of mine will also fight with :( I so hope it doesn't come to that, but I realize that if they continue something has to be done.

Catherine

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Without going into a long winded post, what you have going on is two dogs who BOTH think they are the alpha dog when in fact they should see YOU as their leader.

Dogs live with the pecking order mentality. Humans most of the time don't understand that so they end up spoiling their dogs and having problems.

1. Your dogs need to respect YOU and they need to know that if they misbehave by stepping out of line, i.e. fighting with each other, that you will not tolerate that and you need to take action. I have had terrier's all my life. Usually 3 or 4 dogs at all times. It's bull when someone tells you terrier's can't get along with other terrier's. They don't get along because the owner's don't enforce their position of authority among the pack. I'm not talking about hitting or kicking your dogs when they fight. I'm talking about you acting like the leader and showing authority to your dogs in a way they understand.

2. Food. Dogs are food driven animals. The pack leader is responsible for finding/providing the food. You need to feed your dogs at every mealtime and not just leave bowls of food sitting out 24 hours a day. You also need to feed your dogs according to the desired pecking order that YOU want them to establish. You have two dogs, if one is more aggressive then the other...then make the aggressive dog number 2 by always feeding him second. When they come in from the outdoors, they come in the house in their proper order, dog 1 and 2 and they should ALWAYS follow YOU into the house, not let them in before you. When you pet the dogs, dog number one gets attention first and if dog number 2 starts to act up you need to put him in his place and make him wait his turn. Same with offering treats, you don't just throw out treats willy-nilly...you give the treats in the established order and the dogs must be respectful and wait their turn.

Your dogs will never respect you or your authority and stop fighting if you don't start acting like the leader and treating them as subordinates.

It sounds like alot of work but it really isn't. It's common sense if you have any dog sense. Giving the dog away doesn't solve the problem. If you get another dog you'll be right back where you ended the first time.

My dogs don't fight with each other and they do not fight with other dogs when we travel with them. I would never tolerate that type of behavior out of any dog. Dogs that are aggressive have either been trained to be that way or...are completely spoiled by their owner's so the dogs are confused as to who is in charge so they decide to be in charge themselves.

99% of bad canine behavior is caused by the dog owner's.

And just to drive home my point on Terrier's, if all the terrier breeds were ill-tempered sons and daughter's of Satan, how in the world would breeder's manage to get through dog shows if all the dogs were fighting with each other? The key here is experienced dog owner's/breeder's understand how the dogs mind works. We may have domesticated the dog centuries ago, but he still thinks like a wild dingo. You can't breed that out of them. Dogs need leadership and rules, just like children. :)
 
Without going into a long winded post, what you have going on is two dogs who BOTH think they are the alpha dog when in fact they should see YOU as their leader.

Dogs live with the pecking order mentality. Humans most of the time don't understand that so they end up spoiling their dogs and having problems.

1. Your dogs need to respect YOU and they need to know that if they misbehave by stepping out of line, i.e. fighting with each other, that you will not tolerate that and you need to take action. I have had terrier's all my life. Usually 3 or 4 dogs at all times. It's bull when someone tells you terrier's can't get along with other terrier's. They don't get along because the owner's don't enforce their position of authority among the pack. I'm not talking about hitting or kicking your dogs when they fight. I'm talking about you acting like the leader and showing authority to your dogs in a way they understand.

2. Food. Dogs are food driven animals. The pack leader is responsible for finding/providing the food. You need to feed your dogs at every mealtime and not just leave bowls of food sitting out 24 hours a day. You also need to feed your dogs according to the desired pecking order that YOU want them to establish. You have two dogs, if one is more aggressive then the other...then make the aggressive dog number 2 by always feeding him second. When they come in from the outdoors, they come in the house in their proper order, dog 1 and 2 and they should ALWAYS follow YOU into the house, not let them in before you. When you pet the dogs, dog number one gets attention first and if dog number 2 starts to act up you need to put him in his place and make him wait his turn. Same with offering treats, you don't just throw out treats willy-nilly...you give the treats in the established order and the dogs must be respectful and wait their turn.

Your dogs will never respect you or your authority and stop fighting if you don't start acting like the leader and treating them as subordinates.

It sounds like alot of work but it really isn't. It's common sense if you have any dog sense. Giving the dog away doesn't solve the problem. If you get another dog you'll be right back where you ended the first time.

My dogs don't fight with each other and they do not fight with other dogs when we travel with them. I would never tolerate that type of behavior out of any dog. Dogs that are aggressive have either been trained to be that way or...are completely spoiled by their owner's so the dogs are confused as to who is in charge so they decide to be in charge themselves.

99% of bad canine behavior is caused by the dog owner's.

And just to drive home my point on Terrier's, if all the terrier breeds were ill-tempered sons and daughter's of Satan, how in the world would breeder's manage to get through dog shows if all the dogs were fighting with each other? The key here is experienced dog owner's/breeder's understand how the dogs mind works. We may have domesticated the dog centuries ago, but he still thinks like a wild dingo. You can't breed that out of them. Dogs need leadership and rules, just like children. :)
 
Thanks 40something for your reply. These are the very behavior modifications that I am working on right now. I do realize that we have created this mess by confusing them as to who is the leader and I am reestablishing that now. I also agree that this is not a breed thing. We have a ways to go and I am hoping to get some formal training (for me) to help me set the situation straight.

Catherine

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Hi Catherine,

Ditto to 40something's post. I think she hit the nail right on the head.

I've heard of cases similar to your's with other non-terrier breeds where an older dog has an illness or an injury, and a younger dog begins challenging him/her for alpha position.

Keep working on those behavior modifications and get yourself established as the top dog :). You can do it, you just have to be consistent.

Good luck!
 
Thanks Gayle, I'm working hard on it :) It's just so hard to see them do this. I get so upset when they fight and of course I need to work on staying calm x( which is hard for me to do. DH stays pretty calm. I cannot wait for warmer weather so I can take them out for long walks. Of course we are practicing me leading them on the leash instead of them dragging me LOL!!

Catherine

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>Thanks Gayle, I'm working hard on it :) It's just so hard to
>see them do this. I get so upset when they fight and of
>course I need to work on staying calm x( which is hard for
>me to do. DH stays pretty calm. I cannot wait for warmer
>weather so I can take them out for long walks. Of course we
>are practicing me leading them on the leash instead of them
>dragging me LOL!!
>
>Catherine
>
>http://www.picturetrail.com/photos/fit_fairy
>
>http://bestsmileys.com/exercising/1.gif
>
>
>

{{{{{{{{{{Catherine}}}}}}}}}}

Oh yes, calmness is key! You CAN do it! Just pretend you're doing chin-ups and employ that same steely eyed determination.

And I completely agree with Gayle. I had 2 dachshunds that were 4 years apart in age. As the older dog became more infirm, the younger dog started to nip at her. It was very disconcerting and tough to manage.

I know a lot of people dismiss the Dog Whisperer's approach, but he makes a lot of sense to me. In fact, the more traditional methods did not work with my dogs. I seem to recall an episode where he talked about smaller dogs posing a greater problem because of the perception by owners that they're cute -- people laugh and think they're cute when they misbehave so their behavior goes unchallenged, creating a lot of disciplinary problems down the road. Could this be the issue with your Yorkie?

Hang in there. You CAN lick this thing. You CAN!!
 
Hi again Catherine,

Just a thought, have you ever done an obedience class with the younger dog? That might also be a good avenue for you the two of you to establish the master/dog relationship, and it can also be fun.
 
Thanks Michele!! I totally created this problem. It is the yorkie, the younger of the two that seems to be the most aggressive now. I think that is because of the signals that I send :( I am trying to change that. She has always had a mind of her own and I never got that in check. Now she percieves weakness in the older dog and the game is on so to speak. I have ordered a couple of DVDs from the Dog Whisperer(still waiting on those). I agree, his methods make perfect sense. And since I've been instituting some of those things and I see some changes. They were fighting every night. But that was when they slept in bed with us. Now they have their own beds on the floor. Well guess what? They end up sleeping together!!

I just love them so much and want them to not hurt each other ;(

LOL at the pretending I'm doing chinups!! If I can catch that look that they get before it escalates (and man it only takes seconds) it works well. Once it escalates, I just lose it.

thanks again everyone!

Catherine

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Gayle, no I have not and I think she could definately use it. I have been practicing submission with her. Keeping a gate up so the older dog can not be near or see us (otherwise she would get attacked- I learned that lession when I thought the other dog wasn't around and she came in and bam!!). Believe you me she is stubborn. But I could definately use a professionals touch to make sure I am doing things correctly.
Thanks!

Catherine

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I had the same problem and got help from this site. I also did research on the internet. Some of the things I implemented that helped tremendously:

1. The dogs are fed at the same time but DH and I make them both sit before giving them their food. It knocks them down a notch or two to know they have to do something to get fed. This was a recommendation from the internet.

2. What I give one, I give the other. That goes for a treat or a bone or food. This helps with jealousy issues. If I give one a pigs ear and they do not eat it, I pick it up and put it away so it's not something to fight over. THis has helped with food jealousy.

3. My dogs are not allowed on the furniture. They are dogs...not humans.

4. When they did fight, the best way I found to diffuse the situation was to throw water on them and then put the offending dog (usually the younger one) in a separate room for a period of time. Dogs are pack animals and according to authorities on the internet, this is the best way to get their attention...by shunning them and removing them from the pack.

5. I am the boss, not them and they know it.

6. In your case because jealousy seems to be over affection, I believe a specialist/behaviorist is in order.

I know how tough this is on you because I have been there. Good luck!

HTH
:)
 
Good luck to you :)

My dog was that way whenever I was around other dogs and petting other animals, she (GERMAN SHEPPARD) would freak out and whine and snap at the other animal. She is too big of a dog to act that way - so we purchased a very sharp PINCH collar - the blades point inward.

Some people think these are cruel, but believe me you don't want an out of control dog - especially a large dog. So whenever I would encounter my mom's dog, or the neighbors, or my sister in laws dog. . . .she would have the pinch collar on and I would tell her "Morgan, NO whining" - - obviously she didn't right away and we would take the pinch collar and sharply tug & release to get her attention and then tell her again. Eventually she got the message and we no longer have to put that collar on her.

I still use that collar when I walk her in unfamiliar places where I don't know what dogs may be around. When she has it on her she minds me without protest bc she knows what could happen - - it sure beats being dragged around by your pet or beats having to try and scold her over and over with no response.

LIke I said some people think they are cruel ( so did I at first ) but it was like our dog had a hearing problem ( selective hearing ) when we wanted her to behave, and that snapped her out of it....

I would try one - when they get that way, sharply tug & release on the instigator's collar until you have their attention and tell them again what type of behavior you want from them. They will listen. They might wince and you may feel guilty, but but I think its more the unexpectedness of it that just snaps them out of it, than it being that hurtful......

just my two cents....
 
Reba, I agree with you that those collars work well for big dogs. Not sure about how safe they are with small dogs, though. The bigger, thicker necks on the German shepherds, labs and other big dogs help prevent any injury or pain from the pinch collar. It's a good idea and might be okay for small dogs, but I would definitely ask the vet first.

I feel for you Catherine. I have two dogs that fight a lot and are very jealous of each other, but they do not take it to the level that yours apparently do. I would not want to be in a position where I had to choose. I hope that you are able to find a solution that works so that you can keep them both, as it is obvious you love them both dearly. Good luck.

MissL
 
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