I just HAVE to ask what you all think about the woman....

[hiitdogs]

I understand you believe strongly in reproductive freedom, Carola. But I don't think I'm jumping to any conclusion about how she conceived. Her mother has said it was IVF. Every news report says it was IVF.

I have not judged the woman, her marital status, her ethnicity, or financial situation.

I have only said that the Dr. is irresponsible for implanting a woman with 8 embryos because it is very dangerous to her and the babies. In many medical situations - we regulate what Drs do to ensure the safety of the patient. I'm not making this an issue about reproductive rights, but about Drs. engaging in behaviors that put their patients' lives at risk unnecessarily.

But what I am saying, Cindi, is that we don't know that the doctor implanted 8 embryos. He could have implanted a lot less and they split as they do with identical twins.

I am only suggesting to wait to hear the story from the people who were actually involved, like her or the fertility doctor before making judgements based on speculation or what we hear in the media. Now as to her Mom, if she is anything like my Mom, I wouldn't hold my breath on correct information. My Mom gave a friend of mine "information" about my current treatment and it was not anywhere close to what I am actually doing. Go figure!

 

[CLango]

Operative words "People need to take care of their own lives . . ." in other words - be responsible and pay with your own pocketbook.

This is a somewhat philosophical response to your statement, but in thinking about this situation, I think you hit at the heart of so much of what is going on in our society and the culture we live in. We live in a world where the government is bailing out businesses that have failed due to poor practices and poor decision-making. We live in a world where it has been suggested that the government step in and assist people in making their mortgage payments (or refinancing their mortgages). In other words, we live in a world where personal responsibility (bad decision making) is seemingly being rewarded by the government.

For me, it is no surprise that this woman honestly believed she could have a number of children and not suffer many consequences. I am a strong advocate for many social programs (consider myself very liberal in my politics), but we as a society have really crossed the line between helping those with a genuine need into helping those who have just really made some horrible decisions. I don't know where the two (genuine need vs. horrible decisions) stopped being seen as different, but it seems they have.

This is an incredibly difficult situation because those 14 children should not be made to pay for their mother's irresponsibility (provided she can't take care of them and perhaps she will be able to). But what I find most alarming about this situation is that on the surface (again, she may be able to provide for them so this is an assumption) she did this with the appearance of thinking 'all will be well' without actually showing any initiative on her part of making all things well (by having a job or something like that).

But, quite honestly, I can't fault her any more for that kind of mentality (if that was her mentality, of course) than I can the CEOs who have cost our country billions (!) because of poor leadership and decision-making. And I don't fault her more than the millions who I believe have extended themselves too far financially by having a sense of entitlement ('I deserve the biggest house in the neighborhood, and I don't care if I can afford it or not!') and then looking to the government to help them out.

I think there is quite a bit of frustration in our country with the current government response to the economic crisis in terms of bailouts and such. And I think this woman (and the assumption that she can't take care of these children) is just the embodiment of what alot of citizens are upset about right now--seeing irresponsibility rewarded with dollars from people who work hard and are responsible. I don't think the anger has to do with race or religion. I just think she personifies the type of irresponsibility that has resulted in our current economic crisis, and she happens to be an easy one on which to focus some of the anger and frustration. That there are innocent children involved just makes it more of an emotional debate.

Just my opinion and all that.....

 

[baylian]

BRAVO CLango!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well written opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[peytonsmommy]

Not to be annoying on the subject but this is slightly misleading:

Yes, we used IUI, which is very different from IVF. IUI is intrauterine insemination where you take meds, are monitored via ultrasound and then your husband’s contribution is placed via catheter. There are no eggs “removed” or “put back” as with IVF. So, we were truly unaware that there were 7 possible babies in there on the day that our procedure was done…or I can assure you, we would not have gone through with it!! (We were told that there were 3 with a possibility of 4 which was, by my doctor, considered excellent to proceed.)

According to their own webiste, the dr did say he would normally proceed w/ the cycle, BUT was concerned about their cycle because they were opposed to selective reduction. J&K ignored that and went along w the cycle. When you have an ultrasound prior to your IUI, they count all your follicles. Usually you have a certain # that are considered big enough to produce and egg when triggered and a lot of smaller ones that are considered non-contenders if you will. So that's not saying that those smaller ones NEVER end up getting big enough to release eggs or even that your ultrasound tech got a good luck at all of the follies (believe me, i've had some horrible techs!). So no, they might not have known they were going to end up w/ 6 of them, but they knew they had a chance of HOM and chose to proceed anyways, even with how they felt about selective reduction.

 

[hiitdogs]

Not to be annoying on the subject but this is slightly misleading:

Yes, we used IUI, which is very different from IVF. IUI is intrauterine insemination where you take meds, are monitored via ultrasound and then your husband’s contribution is placed via catheter. There are no eggs “removed” or “put back” as with IVF. So, we were truly unaware that there were 7 possible babies in there on the day that our procedure was done…or I can assure you, we would not have gone through with it!! (We were told that there were 3 with a possibility of 4 which was, by my doctor, considered excellent to proceed.)

According to their own webiste, the dr did say he would normally proceed w/ the cycle, BUT was concerned about their cycle because they were opposed to selective reduction. J&K ignored that and went along w the cycle. When you have an ultrasound prior to your IUI, they count all your follicles. Usually you have a certain # that are considered big enough to produce and egg when triggered and a lot of smaller ones that are considered non-contenders if you will. So that's not saying that those smaller ones NEVER end up getting big enough to release eggs or even that your ultrasound tech got a good luck at all of the follies (believe me, i've had some horrible techs!). So no, they might not have known they were going to end up w/ 6 of them, but they knew they had a chance of HOM and chose to proceed anyways, even with how they felt about selective reduction.

I am by no means an expert in how IUI works but what you decribed is how I understood it and that in those cases doctors often recommend to skip that cycle because of the possibility of too many babies.

I find Kate Gosslin's comments on the lady with the octuplets kind of like the lady with the 99 cats who says 100 cats are ridiculous.

 

[peytonsmommy]

Corola - You are right. Most dr's (at least dr's I have associated with) would have told people that are absolutely against selective reduction to scrap the cycle she got pg on. If they were open to SR, then they would have went ahead. We weren't comfortable w/ SR so we closely monitored my medicated cycles and def would have scrapped that cycle.