I just HAVE to ask what you all think about the woman....

[kathryn]

I think it's ridiculous.
One can 'love children' without having a litter of them.
I think the woman is mentally ill to some extent.
And I think the doctor that agreed to implant (after she already had 6 children and wasn't married) is guilty of malpractice.

I also would guess that these children will have some major medical problems (several of the children from that 5-6 child batch do).

What I hate is when these huge multiple births happen (like that 5-6? child batch, when the parents already had 1 child) and it's treated like it's something so great! A miracle! (More like a burden on an already overpopulated planet). And these people get all this free stuff

 

[hottiescientist]

As far as I am concerned, the law needs to stay away from a woman's uterus. Period. This is between her, her doctor and her God. I wouldn't make the choices that the woman has made but those are her choices, they are legal, and I respect that.

Amen to that.

 

[kathryn]

I love that people are all up in arms about her, yet no one seems to flinch at the Dugger family that has 19 children now. It's somehow different becuase some of the kids are older?

I'm outraged by both situations.

 

[peytonsmommy]

I can't figure out why people care so much, quiet honestly.
It's her perogative how many kids she wants to have.

I guess the reason why situations like this bother me is because it's these people that become the face of AI and they are so far from being the norm.

If you ask the general fertile public about ART in general, instead of thinking of Sally & Joe down the street w/ their one or two kids they automatically think of people like this woman or J&K+8. I hate having to fight that stigma when I talk to people about it. For instance, when we told my MIL about our first IUI she BAWLED because she just couldn't see how we were going to be able to handle triplets ore more. She was convinced that there was no way IUI could produce ONE baby. *sigh*

Oh, and FWIW, I have DEFINTE opinons on the Duggar's as well.

 

[melimcn]

Regardless of we think that this is a mistake or what we would or wouldn't do, I really don't get what the collective anger is about. I just get the distinct feeling that this wouldn't be so much of an issue for the press and many people if she was married. And what is it about the fear that we, the taxpayer will have to take care of her? So far there is no indication that we have to.

Amen!
People are having such a strong reaction to this, and one of th recurring "issues" is that she isn't married. So what? Why would being *married* change the situation?

We have so much going on in the world right now, and this is what people have chosen to zero in on. Really kind of makes you realize how far out of whack our priorities really are, doesn't it?

 

[baylian]

"As far as I am concerned, the law needs to stay away from a woman's uterus. Period. This is between her, her doctor and her God. I wouldn't make the choices that the woman has made but those are her choices, they are legal, and I respect that."

Agreed - just keep it all away from my pocketbook!

The Duggars support their own from what I can tell - they don't live with their parents, are not unemployed, married, stable . . .far cry from this women.

All this talk of "litter" and "spreading the seed" it's a wonder I took so much guff for my signature line back in the fall - "If ya can't feed em - don't breed em". I think the operative push button word was "breed". And I was almost hung from the nearest yardarm.

This whole thing was irresponsible on the part of the mother and the doctors. I don't think this will be all we hear on all of this.

 

[diane57]

Carola, I totally agree with your comments and you are so well-spoken!

I agree that it is interesting how angry people seem to be about this. I heard something on a radio program yesterday that really made me think. The talk show hosts (John and Ken for you L.A. types) were saying that they think the public's reaction is unreasonable, and is partly to do with the fact that this woman is Middle Eastern in ethnicity, and her father has "returned to Iraq" to a job he has there. They then said that if the woman were a white, blue-eyed blonde Christian from the Mid-West, they thought the public's reaction might be quite different. Just picture the spread in People magazine, about, say, pretty fair-haired Mary Beth Johnson, who attends Central Illinois Christian Church, LOOOOOVES all children, believes in the sanctity of life, even though she is unmarried she just is a natural mother and her maternal love is limitless and she has always wanted lots of kids, she would NEVER discontine a pregnancy because all life is sacred, she knew God would see her through, her mom lives with her to help her take care of ALLLLL these gorgeous little blonde babies aren't they precious??? It really did make me stop and think.

 

[baylian]

Carola, I totally agree with your comments and you are so well-spoken!

I agree that it is interesting how angry people seem to be about this. I heard something on a radio program yesterday that really made me think. The talk show hosts (John and Ken for you L.A. types) were saying that they think the public's reaction is unreasonable, and is partly to do with the fact that this woman is Middle Eastern in ethnicity, and her father has "returned to Iraq" to a job he has there. They then said that if the woman were a white, blue-eyed blonde Christian from the Mid-West, they thought the public's reaction might be quite different. Just picture the spread in People magazine, about, say, pretty fair-haired Mary Beth Johnson, who attends Central Illinois Christian Church, LOOOOOVES all children, believes in the sanctity of life, even though she is unmarried she just is a natural mother and her maternal love is limitless and she has always wanted lots of kids, she would NEVER discontine a pregnancy because all life is sacred, she knew God would see her through, her mom lives with her to help her take care of ALLLLL these gorgeous little blonde babies aren't they precious??? It really did make me stop and think.

From your posts it seems you have a beef about religion ~ correct me if I am wrong.

I think you are taking this issue and turning it into some sort of platform to gripe about religion (and race possibly). That is NOT what this is about IMHO. It's about being responsible and in a position to raise these children. And from the sounds of it - this woman is not of sound mind or financial means to do so and therefore it most probably will fall to the taxpayer to do so. This will encourage other people to do stunts like this also.

 

[SirenSongWoman]

No, but YOU may be paying for it!

Though I love you, Loramax, when I read what you wrote I thought the same thing. Normally, in these situations, all the bills for newborn litters wind up getting paid for by diaper companies, baby food producers, and the like. Of course, normally litters are born to classic nuclear families, not single mom's who already have SIX KIDS! And the funds dry up after the babies are no longer babies, but the gargantuan expenses never cease. Renovating an old house in a bad neighborhood for the past 9 years, I've seen so much irresponsible breeding (teenage moms popping out one baby after another, living on public assistance... just like dear old Mom always did... Multi-generational deadbeats taking up funds desperately needed now by people who've been laid off after having worked their whole lives and contributed to society...), I am beyond negatively biased in these matters. Frankly, a single woman who is not wealthy and has never had a regular source of earned income having 14 children (preemies, no less) is just nuts. The woman's own mother said her daughter is "obsessed" with children and she's clearly concerned for her daughter's sanity.

In the end, though, I blame the doctor for catering to what I believe is a genuine mental illness.

 

[SirenSongWoman]

The woman is UNEMPLOYED. Invitro costs tens of thousands of dollars per attempt. Where did she get the money for that part even?

I only heard it once in the zillions of times CNN has reported this story but, as I understand it, her mother claimed she paid for all this with a fat legal settlement from a work-related injury.

BTW, some here have suggested that the "several million" this woman will get from selling her story (which won't be worth much after the many unauthorized examinations of this bizarre story) will be enough to offset all the costs. But "several million" won't be but a drop in the bucket, after taxes, to cover all the costs of 14 kids, 8 of which are preemies. This one's going to be a big fat taxpayer burden for at least 18 years.

 

[Liann]

The talk show hosts (John and Ken for you L.A. types) were saying that they think the public's reaction is unreasonable, and is partly to do with the fact that this woman is Middle Eastern in ethnicity, and her father has "returned to Iraq" to a job he has there. They then said that if the woman were a white, blue-eyed blonde Christian from the Mid-West, they thought the public's reaction might be quite different. Just picture the spread in People magazine, about, say, pretty fair-haired Mary Beth Johnson, who attends Central Illinois Christian Church, LOOOOOVES all children, believes in the sanctity of life, even though she is unmarried she just is a natural mother and her maternal love is limitless and she has always wanted lots of kids, she would NEVER discontine a pregnancy because all life is sacred, she knew God would see her through, her mom lives with her to help her take care of ALLLLL these gorgeous little blonde babies aren't they precious??? It really did make me stop and think.

I couldn't disagree more with this train of thought. Many of us who have heard about this story had NO idea the ethnicity of the woman. I didn't even think twice about what she was. Everything I have read has been online and I haven't even seen a picture of the woman. Her own mother feels that she is obsessed and has even told her daughter that she has had it and will not be there when she gets home. If anyone knows her daughter, it's the mother. And if she thinks the daughter is obsessed and not capable of raising these kids, she probably has a better idea than any of the rest of us. I'm not personally angry about it. She can do what she wants. I can still think it's really stupid, selfish, and irresponsible of her. That's just my opinion though. Doesn't make me angry or hateful. Just opinionated.

 

[hiitdogs]

I couldn't disagree more with this train of thought. Many of us who have heard about this story had NO idea the ethnicity of the woman. I didn't even think twice about what she was. Everything I have read has been online and I haven't even seen a picture of the woman. Her own mother feels that she is obsessed and has even told her daughter that she has had it and will not be there when she gets home. If anyone knows her daughter, it's the mother. And if she thinks the daughter is obsessed and not capable of raising these kids, she probably has a better idea than any of the rest of us. I'm not personally angry about it. She can do what she wants. I can still think it's really stupid, selfish, and irresponsible of her. That's just my opinion though. Doesn't make me angry or hateful. Just opinionated.

Liann, I agree with you in that I wouldn't subscribe to the idea that this is because of her ethnicity. I do believe though it has a lot to do with the fact that she is not married. Several people here mentioned that because she is not married she can't provide a stable home. Quite frankly, that is the biggest nonsense I have ever heard. There are many married couples who provide no stability at all for their children and those are not always the low-lives without a job. I could rattle down a whole list of families in my quite affluent neighborhood.

Her own mother's issue, if you can believe the media is that her daughter is not married. She said in several publications that she believes in traditional marriage but that her daughter doesn't want any part of it. Even her own mother! I bet there would not be such an uproar if the woman was married.

I am absolutely shocked by the prejudiced and judgemental comments of some of the previous posters. People need to take care of their own lives and not judge other people who they don't even know. None of us has met her, none of us has heard her side of the story but everyone is jumping to conclusions declaring her insane, instable, etc. That is a pretty sad state of affairs!

She should be the hero of the anti-abortion league because she decided to keep all the babies and not "murder" them. Amazing how some pro-lifers can all over sudden become pro-choice.

 

[Liann]

Yeah, I was one who mentioned the single thing. I didn't mean it in reference to being married would make her more fit. Just that she is alone and trying to raise 14 children. Good luck! Her parents have had it (she has basically ran them into the ground with her first 6), so now she really is all alone. How could she even work with 8 babies needing to be taken care of? She is totally dependent at this point on getting some publicity, book deals, and basically exploiting her children for money in order to feed them. I think it's just awful. BUT, I think it is HER decision. That's the great thing about this country, we have the freedom to make our own decisions (most of the time). Whether they be wise or incredibly stupid. And I agree it needs to stay that way. Now, if there are signs that these children are being neglected and not taken care of, THEN, I think social services should step in and evaluate what to do from there.

 

[baylian]

I am absolutely shocked by the prejudiced and judgemental comments of some of the previous posters. People need to take care of their own lives and not judge other people who they don't even know. None of us has met her, none of us has heard her side of the story but everyone is jumping to conclusions declaring her insane, instable, etc. That is a pretty sad state of affairs!

She should be the hero of the anti-abortion league because she decided to keep all the babies and not "murder" them. Amazing how some pro-lifers can all over sudden become pro-choice.

Operative words "People need to take care of their own lives . . ." in other words - be responsible and pay with your own pocketbook.

I don't think in any way that the pro-life people on this forum or in general were encouraging the idea that she should have aborted any fetus at any time. I am pro life and that is never an option. However - what I think is the more important statement is that it should have never got to this point in the first place.

Sirensong - your last two posts were right on!!

 

[cindi1]

I still think the Doctor was irresponsible for implanting that many embryos in the woman. He created a life threatening situation for her and the 8 babies.

The media and her spokesperson have been pretty clear that it was IVF that she used to get pregnant. That means - she makes a lot of eggs, they take them out, the fertilize them, they put them back in (they being the Dr/fertility team).

IUI is a different procedure altogether where the eggs are caused to release from the ovaries and the Dr. injects the sperm. I believe the Iowa couple mentioned earlier had this type of procedure, not IVF. I also believe that John and Kate did not have IVF.

It is nearly impossible to control the number of embryos from IUI, but you have total control in IVF. AND you can freeze the extras for later so you don't have to use them all (I only mention this because I understand some feel that it is abortion to destroy an embryo).


This is from the J&K+8 website...

Yes, we used IUI, which is very different from IVF. IUI is intrauterine insemination where you take meds, are monitored via ultrasound and then your husband’s contribution is placed via catheter. There are no eggs “removed” or “put back” as with IVF. So, we were truly unaware that there were 7 possible babies in there on the day that our procedure was done…or I can assure you, we would not have gone through with it!! (We were told that there were 3 with a possibility of 4 which was, by my doctor, considered excellent to proceed.)

 

[Gayle]

Yeah, I was one who mentioned the single thing. I didn't mean it in reference to being married would make her more fit. Just that she is alone and trying to raise 14 children.

ITA with Liann.

Carola - It's not that she's SINGLE that's the problem. It's the fact (based on news reports) that she has absolutely ZERO support system in place to help care for ANY of her kids. That's what makes her decision, which she is allowed to make, irresponsible...at the very least.

Carola quoted:
"She should be the hero of the anti-abortion league because she decided to keep all the babies and not "murder" them. Amazing how some pro-lifers can all over sudden become pro-choice."

No, but she and her doctor shouldn't be heralded for creating a "miracle". IMO allowing that number of embryos to be implanted is criminal...it's a perversion of the technology that was created to help families have ONE child at a time. That doctor, any fertility doctor, shouldn't be putting families in the position of having to "murder" a fetus because there are like 5 or 6 too many.

FWIW, I have two friends who who went through ART to conceive. One had one child, and another had twins. There was NOTHING in either pregnancy that was low risk. So, IMO, a doctor who puts that many lives (mother and children) at such high risk should at the very least lose his/her license.

What if she had died during the birth/pregnancy? Then what would have happened to the six kids she had?

 

[hiitdogs]

Operative words "People need to take care of their own lives . . ." in other words - be responsible and pay with your own pocketbook.

Yes, people need to pay with their own pocketbooks. As far as we know she has been working and taking care of those 6 other kids while getting a her Master's degree. I don't think there is any reason to get bent out of shape over our pocketbooks until she actually gets public assistance.

Aside though, the way our government operates there will always be things that we don't want to pay for and still have to. I for my part never wanted that war in Iraq and the government still went into my pocketbook.

However - what I think is the more important statement is that it should have never got to this point in the first place.

And whose decision is that? Yours? Mine? A panel of experts? I would say it is solely between her and her doctor. If we start regulating a person's reproductive choices we'll operate on the same level as communist China.

Her mother said that it certainly wasn't planned by her daughter to have 8 kids and when she was told she would have 7 babies and given the choice to abort some of them, she refused. The 8th wasn't discovered until the babies were delivered.

 

[baylian]

Yes, people need to pay with their own pocketbooks. As far as we know she has been working and taking care of those 6 other kids while getting a her Master's degree. I don't think there is any reason to get bent out of shape over our pocketbooks until she actually gets public assistance.

Aside though, the way our government operates there will always be things that we don't want to pay for and still have to. I for my part never wanted that war in Iraq and the government still went into my pocketbook.

And whose decision is that? Yours? Mine? A panel of experts? I would say it is solely between her and her doctor. If we start regulating a person's reproductive choices we'll operate on the same level as communist China.

Her mother said that it certainly wasn't planned by her daughter to have 8 kids and when she was told she would have 7 babies and given the choice to abort some of them, she refused. The 8th wasn't discovered until the babies were delivered.

I don't want to pay for public education because I choose to send/pay for my child to private school - so yes - I agree with you on that end of it.

However - this having babies that you cannot afford and have to rely on the government should not be happening. I rather liken it to Obama putting a cap on the salaries of the CEO's who took bailout money (and I totally agree with that). There should be a cap on what the government pays for in the social services - having kids you can't afford should be one of them. It's really the same thing in the big picture in my eyes.

 

[hiitdogs]

I
It is nearly impossible to control the number of embryos from IUI, but you have total control in IVF. AND you can freeze the extras for later so you don't have to use them all (I only mention this because I understand some feel that it is abortion to destroy an embryo).


This is from the J&K+8 website...

Yes, we used IUI, which is very different from IVF. IUI is intrauterine insemination where you take meds, are monitored via ultrasound and then your husband’s contribution is placed via catheter. There are no eggs “removed” or “put back” as with IVF. So, we were truly unaware that there were 7 possible babies in there on the day that our procedure was done…or I can assure you, we would not have gone through with it!! (We were told that there were 3 with a possibility of 4 which was, by my doctor, considered excellent to proceed.)

And who is to say that's not what she was doing? Who is to say they implanted 4 embryos and they split after implanting resulting in more babies? We have not heard from her or her doctor so far as to what the story really was.

My issue really is that yet again people start jumping to conclusions and judging a decision where most of what we have heard is speculation.

Me personally, I wouldn't make the same choice as she did but I also don't think I am the gold standard. I make choices that I find right for myself and my family but I also afford other people the right to make their choices as to what they feel is right for them. However, I also expect personal responsibility from each and every one. She made her bed (by having those 14 kids) now lay in it. I am gonna be the first one to scream at the top of my lungs if she doesn't live up to her responsibility but until then I don't think anyone of us has the right to judge.

And if she puts her own life on the line for what she believes in, well, that's her choice too and it is no one else's business but her own. It is her life!!

 

[cindi1]

I understand you believe strongly in reproductive freedom, Carola. But I don't think I'm jumping to any conclusion about how she conceived. Her mother has said it was IVF. Every news report says it was IVF.

I have not judged the woman, her marital status, her ethnicity, or financial situation.

I have only said that the Dr. is irresponsible for implanting a woman with 8 embryos because it is very dangerous to her and the babies. In many medical situations - we regulate what Drs do to ensure the safety of the patient. I'm not making this an issue about reproductive rights, but about Drs. engaging in behaviors that put their patients' lives at risk unnecessarily.