Heavy weight and S&H question....

naughtoj

naughtoj

Cathlete
Hello everyone!! Got another question..


Started S&H this week. Feel weird, very different kind of a workout. Did Bi/tri and felt very little soreness although I was working very hard.

Yesterday I did Legs and was posed with a problem. Usually, with Cathe's other workouts, I use 15-20 lb dumbells, 20 being the heaviest ever. For LL, I would start with 20#'s and eventually would be dropping in weight or completely letting go for the low-ends!!

Well, I did the pre-exhaust exercises with the same wt Cathe uses and felt a little pre-burn. But I found that atleast very much so for squats, that I had to use very heavy wt. I first loaded the barbell at 40 lbs, but didn't feel any "burn" with that, so loaded it with 50. At this point my shoulders were hurting (I don't have a barbell pad yet OUCH!) and my body was teetering, I think because I am not used to that poundage. But my legs are not working that hard. Well, then I got a little twinge of some reoccuring pain in my right knee. It is a pain that occurs with pressure or loading of wt on the knee. Anyone know what this chronic knee condition is?? It is sometimes there when I run as well.


So, my question is, do you think I should up the weight on all the pre-exhausts and stay with the 55 lb. barbell?? It really got me thinking that in order to work my legs very good, atleast for strength, I was going to need a squat rack. To be honest, my legs weren't 1/4 as fried as when I do LL. They were shaky, but that seemed more of a result of trying to balance the wt.

I also had the thought that it is not good to go from using 40 lb-55 lb for squats in one workout. Isn't this sudden increase in wt going to be hard on the joints. This is the only reason i could think of for me knee to all of a sudden start complaning. But I NEED that weight to effectively work my legs for this series!! I am frustrated and thinking of just switching back to MIS or LL. Anyone have any suggestions other than a barbell pad, which I plan to get this weekend!!!LOL!!OUCH!! That bone on the back of my neck is black and blue!!
 
Actually, just for clarification, I think the knee pain started on the lunges, not the squats. Do you all use the same poundage for the lunges as for the squats. I beleive my form is correct, not letting the knees jut out over the toes. I am very careful.
 
Ok, I think the knee thing is PatelloFemoral Pain Syndrome. Only happens when I climb stairs, step up to get into my husband's truck, run..in other words, bearing wt. It is a sharp, quick pain, for now, dissapearing when I stop the problem activity. I will just have to be careful with that...RICE...Isn't the internet wonderful!!! Off to rollerblade...


Janice
 
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Sep-21-02 AT 02:00PM (Est)[/font][p]Hi Janice. I'll answer the questions that I'm able to, which will eliminate any speculation on my part of what could be causing your knee pain; I am not qualified to even guess!

I use much heavier weight for squatting in S&H than I do for the static lunges. My sqatting/power cage makes it possible for me to load heavy, usually around 75lbs. For the lunges, I stick with 40lbs, but instead of alternating legs on each set, I do two sets on the left leg, then two sets on the right leg, this hits the legs more intensely for me. For the pre-fatigue exercises, I use heavier weights than Cathe and crew; usually 30lbs. I don't do the side lunges before the plies, I substitute step-ups on a 10" step, using 30lbs., one set of 15 reps. per leg. I really need to work on my form on those side lunges, but I keep putting it off, hence the step-ups.

A squatting rack is a great investment. I would recommend one if you have plans to continue lifting heavy at home. A barbell pad is essential for comfort.

I don't know if this info. is at all helpful to you. I hope that you can find a way to eliminate your knee pain!

Take care.
 
Janice,
My first question would be regarding your pre-exhaust exercises--what exactly are you doing? Pre-exhaust is a very misunderstood concept--typically people refer to any exercise that precedes another exercise for the same muscle group as a pre-exhaust. It isn't. True pre-exhaust technique involves doing relative isolation exercises to fatigue the strongest of the muscle groups to be trained, followed by compound exercises. You won't use a compound exercise such as a squat, lunge or leg press as a pre-exhaust exercise.

Next, I would say that it is perfectly normal to do less weight on a lunge vs a squat--a lunge is a modified single leg squat, so you don't have the advantage of using both legs maximally with lunges. Also, knee pain can be worse in a lunge, particularly if the form isn't perfect--if your knee goes too far forward, you put excess pressure on the patellofemoral joint.

With your knee pain, RICE is a fine treatment method, but it doesn't get to the root of your problem. If you have knee pain with certain activities, there has to be a reason--either loss of form, tight muscles or connective tissue, malalignment--pain won't occur with normal motion unless there is something going wrong.

Good luck with your knee pain!
Maribeth
 
Hi Cyberfit, you certainly helped me (maybe Janice too). I've got to invest in a squat rack, what do they run on average $.

Janice I have more of a problem with knee pain during lunges, but not during squats. I found that the hip flexor exercise that was recommended to me on another post helped A LOT. But, again, this was for my pain which may be different from yours. If you decide to try the hip flexor exercises make sure you hold them for the whole 2 minutes (a long time when your watching the clock!!) I think stretching to prepare for the workout is very important and I know it's hard to fit in when your clock watching, but try hard to get it in.

Also, don't know if anyone else uses this, but I bought a pipe insulator at Menard's (approximately $1.00 for 6 ft) and I cut it with a utility knife and wrapped it around my bar. I think it is to cover 3/4 inch pipe or 1 inch can't remember I cut a piece about 10 inches long and this makes the bar very comfortable on my back and I can remove it quickly if need be (and there is lots more to use when this one wears out!!)

Now Janice another thing, you ditched me on the TTR what's the deal!!!! Just kidding. I'll support you no matter what. Actually I can't wait to get to the S&H tapes which I hope to begin RIGHT after this rotation which I will probably do for 6 weeks (I've completed two so four to go). I think I'm probably an ectomorph type and love to lift slow and heavy and hate cardio. I am seeing results already with this rotation, but hope to see much more with the slow and heavy rotation. I would like to do each part twice per week though if possible and fit in 2 cardios as well. I'm a little bit skeptical about the body rx diet, but I'm getting the book at the library so I can't say much before reading it. Meat has so many hormones and junk in it that I can't put it in my body. Maribeth had such a good post about how high protein diets can cause weight loss, but are they really good for you??? The countries that are highest on meat and dairy intake are ALWAYS highest in heart disease, cancers etc.. Maybe the exercise in body rx counters this, don't know the answer to this, just some thoughts. Does the body rx diet make it possible for vegans to participate?? I pretty much follow the Hallelujah Diet which has solved incredible health problems for me. No more allergies or colds etc. and I was a very sick person previously. I've followed it for two years and haven't caught a cold or sore throat yet, and feel FANTASTIC. I will say I'm an all or nothing person, haven't had icecream in two years, but if I tasted it I just wouldn't have the will power to stop, I'm not good with moderation, but some people are. I do have to be careful to get enough protein on lifting days (I'm taking veggie protein powder). It sounds like your enjoying it though so good for you, every body is different:)!!!! Hope your workouts are going well and keep us posted.

Briee
 
Maribeth..

When I refer to "pre-exhausts" I am simply referring to the exercises Cathe does before the "slow and heavy" sets. Apparantly, these are the same ones you are saying it is inferior to do, but I am just following the video?!

When you talk of inflexibility and lack of proper form, can I ask that if these were factors, why is the pain only occuring in my right knee?? Also, when I say "pain" I am not talking about anything intense or really even problematic at this point. I am just aware, as you say, that something is "going on there". But the twinge goes away when I get up from the lunge or exacerbating activity. Normally my knee does not bother me during my training sessions so I am left to conclude that the increase in weight is what caused it. Do you think I added weight too soon, even though my legs seemed able to handle it??

Briee...I am SO SORRY!! Yes, I bailed for now!! I am glad your diet works for you!! Actually though, I would have no idea how to tell you that Body Rx would work with a vegan diet. I doubt it, but it would if you could eat fish. It isn't a diet really....all I did was take the foods I have always eaten, decreased a little carbs and added some more protein. I am by far not on a low carb, high protein diet. I know the issue with meat, and i am trying to get most of my protein from fish and (gasp) dairy. The truth is I have always eaten dairy sources and I am as healthy as an ox, so I cannot knock it. That was my main problem with Body Rx..the protein content, namely the meat consumption. But to tell you the truth, I am loosely following it. Eating pretty clean, but some days I just can't meet the protein quotient. oh well, you know??

I am not really liking S&H....seems easier than other wt workouts..like i am not working hard enough. Thank goodness I am only doing it for a short period of time. I am so bad with following rotations. I get all excited about one and then something happens and I change my routine. I guess I don't have much focus!! Sorry I ditched you!!

Janice
 
I'm feeling guilty now - I didn't want you to feel bad for switching rotations!!!! It always helps to get really excited about something to keep the motivation going - so go, go, go!!! But, now you got me wondering about S&H. I'm wondering if you think your not really getting a workout because you are a fast twitch muscle person and lifting slow and heavy is just your "thing". I know that before I did cathe I was doing Francesca Gerns slow and methodical lifting tapes (boring, but effective). When I look back on these they seem so easy because they were slow and heavy(I went heavy). Some people have a hard time with these because they have the slow twitch muscles and do better on endurance. I have a heck of a time doing power hour, I love it, but it is tough for me. I try to go even heavier than cathe on some things in PH. Cardio is so tough for me too.

I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe it's doing more than you think, your body may be "made" for heavy lifting. Give it a chance for a couple of weeks and let us know if you see any changes before thinking it's not working. I'm really anxious to see your results even though you can't feel them right now. It will also be interesting to see how you have advanced when you go back to another rotation. Isn't this fun!!!! It's so cool to learn about the body and understand how it responds.

Again, just a few thoughts. :)

Briee
 
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Sep-21-02 AT 11:40PM (Est)[/font][p]Janice,
I don't have S&H, so I don't know if the exercises that are referred to in it are truly pre-exhaust exercises. But, if they aren't relative isolation exercises, they aren't truly a pre-exhaust exercise.

What exercises do the S&H refer to as "pre-exhaust"? Please understand I am not being critical of you or anyone else when I say that certain exercise science concepts are not well understood by the exercising public--it is for this reason that techniques grounded in sound exercise science will appear not to work at times--it's a matter of misunderstanding or misapplication of the technique rather than the technique itself at fault.
Maribeth
 
Briee,
Please don't get me wrong--I don't advocate high protein diets at all!! What I was doing is explaining why a person on a high protein diet may be able to consume more calories than a person on a more balanced diet of the same number of calories and still lose weight.

There are all sorts of negative consequences of a low carb, high protein diet. But, there are scientific reasons behind why someone who eats tons of protein can eat more calories than a person on a high fat or high carb diet--the thermic effect of protein is significantly higher than that of carbs or fat. But for a very physically active person, decreasing carbs below the quantity necessary to avoid glycogen depletion results in a decline in exercise performance and a possible loss of lean muscle mass.

I consume about 55% carbs, 25% protein and 20% fat in my diet. Any less carbs and I boink out with my training.
Maribeth
 
Janice,
Inflexibility and lack of form CAN be a problem on one side only. There are a varity of reasons that one side will perform differently than the other--leg length discrepancy, differences in muscle length, hip rotations, previous injury, pain, differences in strength between the dominant and non-dominant side, to name a few.

If your knee is bothering you while doing a particular activity, I strongly suggest figuring out why. Sometimes it can be as simple as a slight adjustment of foot placement. Try the exercise without following a video and see if you can find a comfortable weight and postiton.

I don't want to see anybody wind up with problems like I had from ignoring pain over a period of time, which led to permanent cartilage damage on both my kneecaps.
Maribeth
 
Maribeth..

I always value your posts. I didn't take offense to what you said, I just was confused for a minute because I was wishing for a second there that everything did not have to be so complex!!

Cathe does I believe backward lunges for her pre-exhaust, which i don't think is supposed to pre exhaust the largest most powerful muscle involved in the exercise..in this case...but just to put an overall feeling of fatigue in the entire leg. I was just saying that this did not work for me. I was not tired enough after the sets..my HR was not elevated..and there was very little "burn". Not even in the quads. I was having a hard time balancing the weight simply because i have never hoisted that much over my shoulders.

The knee thing acually I belive started before i even started with weights over a year ago, when I was trail running. I believe it is exacerbated by the heavy weight load of the lunges..that is when i feel it the most. But I am pretty sure I am keeping correct form. Flexibilty has always been an issue with me, but since weight training I am much more diligent with some static stretching.

I think I understand your pre exhaust explanation. Maybe I will start doing a few of the exercises you suggested for glutes before I start the Legs S&H. I just hate the feeling that I didn't really workout, and this is kinda how I felt after the Legs the other day. And I was not sore at all. Do you think what Briee says above about the higher percentage fast-twitch muscles and performance has any credibilty or would this be a long shot??

I will focus on stretching me legs more before exercising. I do mostly squats, lunges, deadlifts...for lower body exercise. Do you think I should start adding in reverse curls for me legs to strengthen my hamstrings?? I read somewhere that too powerful quads can pull the knee cap out of alignment?? Well, I guess I should say having quads that are stronger than your hamstrings. Do you agree with my layman diagnosis of PatelloFemoral Pain Syndrome?? As I said, the pain is only present on a very mild level during weight bearing and NOT after..no swelling. What do you think?? And thanks so much for your responses. Even though they contribute to my confusion sometimes, they are still well valued....

Knowlege is Power!!

Janice
 
Hi Maribeth, don't worry, I did understand this and I thought it was a great explanation. I think my wording made it sound different than intended. Makes complete sense now why people are losing weight on high protein diets, but like I said and you said too, it doesn' mean that they are good for you.

Oh also, I loved your post on mascularity. I'm just getting in the habit now of copying off your posts for further reference!!! And I'd also like to know if there was anything to what I said about Janice and S&H. I keep reading other posts where S&H doesn't produce the soreness post workout in some people. I'm very similar, have to go really heavy to even think that I'm really working out and even then not too much soreness. Maybe they should call it Slow, Heavy and painless!!!

Briee

Thanks so much Maribeth.
 
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