Everyone -- Q re: energy sources for super-long or tough workouts?

TarHeelMom

TarHeelMom

Cathlete
Hi everyone! I'm in research mode looking at spinning bikes, and I am seriously thinking about asking my boys for one for my birthday this summer. :D I've so enjoyed spinning in my occasional forays to a gym, and I think it would be a great long-term addition to my cross-training here at The Home Gym. :) I've gotten a lot of great info from the spinning fanatics over at VF, and I was reading on there the other day about a VFer whose HR monitor estimated that she used 1200 calories (!!) during a three-hour Spinervals video ("Tough Love"). This made me wonder (not for the first time) about energy sources for high-intensity and/or long-duration workouts.

I guess my question is this: Where does that 1200 calories come from? Or, where CAN it come from? More to the point -- If you're doing a high-intensity or long-duration workout, how do you optimize the chances that your body will use its own fat stores for energy and not cannibalize muscle? Should you eat/drink something in particular before, during or after your workout? And would these answers change if you were doing a "regular", say, 60 to 75 minute workout versus a much longer workout, like spinning to "Tough Love" for 3 hours, or running a 10K or a half-marathon?

I have read a lot and do know a lot about the basics of nutrition, but working out longer and harder raises the bar. I just want to make sure that as I continue to ratchet up the intensity and (sometimes) the duration of my own workouts, I'm doing so in a healthy way and fueling myself so as to optimize the effects of my workouts. I don't want to accidentally (ignorantly) sabotage my own body. And of course, as you all know, I am perpetually battling the Mid-Life Bulge. Ugh. So I have PLENTY of fuel available! :)

Can anyone chime in here with good web sources for info, or books, etc.? Thanks Educated Crowd! :7

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/sport/sport-smiley-003.gif Kathy S. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/spezial/spudniks/spudniklifter.gif
 
I personally don't see any way around not burning the hard gained muscle if you workout for 3 hours at that high of an intensity, but maybe there is a way, I'm not sure. One of the girls on this forum turned me onto this website, maybe you've looked at it already, maybe not. But I'll give it to you anyway, it's very helpful to me so here goes. www.hussman.org
That's the one that I just printed out and read every now and then if I am questioning something. it's been the most helpful for me.
You know, there is one thing that might help you to not burn muscle is to stop at the one hour mark, drink a protein shake, grab a glass of water and then continue. Just a thought, I could be wrong. But to go non-stop like that you're body would definately turn to your muscle for a quick recharge. At least that is what I've read and what I believe to be true.

Kathy
 
RE: Everyone -- Q re: energy sources for super-long or ...

There's a news story out today that says replenishing with good carbs and some quality protein after a tough workout is essential.
sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/04/18/national1244EDT0455.DTL

Trying to figure out how to do a link. Hope this helps.

--Ann
 
Kathy:

workouts that go up to and beyond the three hour mark tend to be marathons and to fuel such constant exertion, runners use glucose, high energy drinks. The fuel is coming from stored glycogen at first, then the steady suply of glucose, but you only have to look at the body of a long distance runner to see that maintaining high degree of muscle growth while exercising regularly to such intensity are simply two incompatible goals.

Why do you want to workout for three hours cardio anyway if you are not competing in marathons or iron man or hiking or mountain biking excursions?

For your average 1-1 and half hour workout, taking fuel during the workout would depend on the nature of the activity. For example, for cardio, I cannot take fuel during this workout, only water. Anything else would make me throw. But then if I know I have a tough workout up ahead I make sure it comes after a rest day and after a good lunch. However, if I am doing several hours of weight training, like PLB and PUB combined or a major S&H session, then I drink orange juice throughout and I can feel the extra energy surge this gives me over just plain water.

When I am on tough, stamina building hiking and mountain climbing tours with my husband and a 40 pound backpack it is impossible not to lose some upper body muscle, but my lower body could advertize for the cover of thighs and buns of steel, I kid you not. The muscles of the lower body, the working muslces, become hardened and steeled, not worn down, so there is some depletion of fat stores going on down there but muscle maintenance. However, such trips require heavy breakfasts such as porridge/oatmeal with full fat milk, a high energy lunch of protein bars, nuts and dried fruit and an evening meal of several courses, way more than I eat at home, with high emphasis on carbs for the next day's fuel: soup. mashed potato, de-hydrated TVP/soy product. Carb loading, just as marathon runners do.

For a regular IMAX session, a good breakfast, a good lunch and refuelling snack after the workout should see you through.

Does this answer any of your questions?

Clare
 
Hi Clare!

VERY helpful information -- more or less confirming and putting specifics to what I thought I already knew.

I don't plan on doing a 3-hour workout, or running a marathon or the like. I don't do this every week because time doesn't permit it, but when I can, I like to do a long workout Saturday, much as you've suggested -- a PUB/PLB combo day, or a super-intense cardio hour followed by abs and a long stretch, etc. I do sometimes feel that when I do this kind of "amplified" workout I'm feeling depleted of energy before I'm feeling ready to call it a day mentally. This is especially true during a weight workout, as you said. During a big cardio session I just want water. I like your suggestion of some orange juice along the way during a PUB/PLB marathon.

And if I do get a spinning bike, I would enjoy an occasional long "ride" -- probably not three hours, but you never know -- I guess the mood could strike me. Those endorphins hit and WHAMMO, you want to just keep going!

My family has recently begun to get into hiking and we're going totry to do more of it this summer when our teenagers have time (and -- GASP -- might agree to go with us! ;-)) I'm printing and saving your nutrition ideas for those days. :)

One thing I don't routinely do is have a "refueling snack" after a workout. I've read a lot about that being important to muscle building. I honestly find, though, that for quite a while after working out I simply don't want to eat. Should I be force-feeding something, especially after a weight-training session? I don't have any real trouble adding muscle and if the added calories aren't essential I'm loathe to add them. Still, I'm trying to seriously learn to optimize my fuel intake. :)

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/sport/sport-smiley-003.gif Kathy S. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/spezial/spudniks/spudniklifter.gif
 
RE: Everyone -- Q re: energy sources for super-long or ...

Kathy, I agree with you completely -- which is why I posed this question. I just posted to Clare that I don't have any immediate intention of working out for 3 hours, let alone at that intensity. But I do like to do a longer workout on the weekends, and I am trying really seriously to focus on putting better and more effective nutrients into my mouth. (Plus a dose of chocolate here and there, and the occasional medium-never-small serving of movie theater popcorn. ;-)) I am working very hard on my training and want my food intake to complement that as much as possible.

Great website BTW -- thanks for the reference.

I posted a similar question over at VF and it'll be interesting to see what the members who are deeply into these long Spinerval training videos have to say!

Thanks again for the advice!

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/sport/sport-smiley-003.gif Kathy S. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/spezial/spudniks/spudniklifter.gif
 
RE: Hi Clare!

I did Totally Time Trial (T3), the 1.5 hour Spinerval, and drank two Gatorades, and a bottle of water. I had eaten a large bowl of oatmeal for breakfast with fruit, nuts and soymilk about an hour before, and had a good, big lunch afterwards. I think when I do Tough Love, I will have some "Goo" on hand also. There are a few Goo-type gels out there that runners use, and my friend said that Goo tastes the best. (I'm pretty sure that's how you spell it).

As to why anyone would want to do a three-hour bike ride indoors if you are not training for a triathalon: I have three big bike rides scheduled this summer (a 50-mile; a 62.5-mile and a 75-mile). I like to train with spinning over the winter months to keep up my stamina. Also, during the summer some of the weekends are rainy, so I can't get any road miles in that week. I pop in a Spinerval and off I go!

Just my .02!:D
 
RE: Hi Clare!

Hi:

I wasn't saying that I couldn't understand why anyone would want to do a three hour bike ride if in training for a specific activity/competition/excursion, as my post makes clear. I was not intending to imply that such people might have a screw loose!!! But I am not sure I could understand a three hour of any cardio per day if not in training for such a competition/excursion, whatever your particular sport might be. 3 hours cardio per day as just a workout is not necessary. If some like to do it, whatever! It would be a question of desire rather than necessity for optimal health.

The training you do for the reason you state makes perfect sense.

Clare
 
RE: Hi Clare!

Kathy:

if a refuelling snack after working out doesn't grab you, I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think you should force yourself. Water or any healthy liquids is of primary importance anyway.

Other articles I have read stress more the importance of having amino acids (proteins) in your system before the weight training, so that the building blocks of protein are already in your bloodstream and being taken to the muscles as soon as the workout is over. In which case, a snack afterwards would not be so important anyway.

I think it is possible to get too hung up on the fueling/refueling issue. I mean if you eat three nutritionally balanced meals per day (or 5-6 depending on whether you are a grazer versus a hearty meal person) and don't skip meals, with a serving of protein at each meal, I think you'll be covered.

Good luck getting your kids to go with you! Ours are still young enough (7 and 10) that they can't say no!

Clare
 
RE: Hi Clare!

Hi Clare! More good common sense advice, and I appreciate it! :)

I sure don't want you or anyone else to think I'm obsessing over this stuff (food, workouts). I like to and try to follow the middle-of-the-road approach to all things, including my fitness and wellness regimen. Lately, though, I've decided that I do need to shake myself up a bit. Sometimes being an "all things in moderation" person can lead to becoming a little, um, less than disciplined, shall we say? ;-) My habits and routine could stand to be kicked up a notch. All of my questions and research and quest for new cross-training variety are motivated by that simple desire to just raise the bar a little in all venues of my fitness-related life.

I'll let ya know if we're successful at getting Mr. 14 and Mr. 17 to go hiking with us. So far they say they're "stoked," but at their ages we'll believe it when we're in the car en route. :) Things were MUCH simpler when they were 7 and 10 like yours!! Now they're both bigger than my DH and me so it's doubly hard to exert our parental muscle -- try telling your kid very sternly "Hey, you look down here when I'm talking to you!" ;-)

By the way, just FYI -- I would LOVE to be able to train for an outdoor half-marathon or lengthy bike ride. I don't have a bike (yet) so that may still be a nice long-term goal. But my knees are so fragile and wonky now that road running is a thing of the past for me. I ran for years on concrete -- not long distances, but pretty regularly -- and have the joints to show for it. I have to be careful when we hike -- great shoes, correct socks, good warm-up. Even then, too much vertical tromping around and my knees are aching the next day. Yuck! :-(

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/sport/sport-smiley-003.gif Kathy S. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/spezial/spudniks/spudniklifter.gif
 
RE: Everyone -- Q re: energy sources for super-long or ...

Kathy, endurance athletes replenish glycogen as they exercise since the body uses a fuel mixture of glycogen (think carbs) & fat. The amount of muscle depleted depends on the athlete's training, gender & refueling as they work out. What works for refueling depends upon the individual, the intensity & the sport. I had to be fussier when running more than 1 hr compared to training for cycling centuries & for climbing Mt. Whitney. But in general high carb/low protein & very little fat during endurance work. I also use an hydration fluid as a source of carbs & electrolytes.

I can certainly vouch that what you eat the day before & the day of endurance work (60+ minutes of cardio) makes a big difference in the workout. As does what you put into your body immediately after. DH seems to think that glycogen window is open for hours but it's not.

One of the benefits of moderate intensity workouts, endurance workouts in Johnny G Spinning lingo, is it teaches the body to use more fat & less glycogen. Lance Armstrong spends a lot of time in the saddle at low to moderate intensity each winter. I'm don't understand Coach Troy's fascination with high intensity workouts, there has to be an endurance base first & then intensity work.

Nancy Clark and Ellen Coleman both have great sports nutrition books for endurance athletes especially if you want to know why & how. Liz Applegate's book is a good read but she generally just tells you what to do & not why.

Finally the reed thin people you see dominating marathons have plenty of fat to fuel their event. But even the Kenyans take on fluid carbs during the races. So we all have plenty of fat to fuel our workouts, we still need to worry about the bonk when glycogen is depleted.

I know some of this was explained above, so sorry for any redundency.

Debra
 
RE: Everyone -- Q re: energy sources for super-long or ...

Debra, thank you SO much -- your explanation is so well-written, and not redundant at all, I don't think.

I am so new to this idea of trying seriously to raise the bar on myself, both in terms of intensity and endurance and preparation for both -- all of this info is just terrific. I'm going to find one of the Clark or Coleman books at Barnes & Noble this weekend and I know I'll enjoy knowing more about this! :)

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/sport/sport-smiley-003.gif Kathy S. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/spezial/spudniks/spudniklifter.gif
 
RE: Everyone -- Q re: energy sources for super-long or ...

Kathy, you might have better luck at a specialty running or triathlete shop or a high end bike shop. I haven't had much luck finding sports nutrition books at B&N or Borders (but they've got lots of popular diet books).

Thought I'd mention that Clark, Coleman & Applegate are all endurance athletes.

It looks like quite a few VF's are gearing up for long-distance events. I suspect there's a lot of off-forum discussion about fueling, maybe you could find out & join in. I respect Wendy's decision to keep VF diet free but the discussion would really help the newcomers to endurance work.

Debra
 
RE: Everyone -- Q re: energy sources for super-long or ...

Great tip, Debra -- would you think I could start with contacting someone like Cleda, for example?

I, too, really kinda like WWWendy's rule, but it can be a little constraining for this kind of discussion. On the other hand, mention food in any way, and you're off and sliding on the slippery slope. :)

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/sport/sport-smiley-003.gif Kathy S. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/spezial/spudniks/spudniklifter.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Our Newsletter

Get awesome content delivered straight to your inbox.

Top