EAT TO LIVE

naughtoj

Cathlete
Who has read/using the diet in this book? I am reading it now...looks interesting, but I am kinda in shock that everything I thought I "knew" about nutrition is wrong. Any of the rest of you feel that way??

Carole...I know you are doing this. How is it going? I am wondering if it really possible/desireable for me to become a vegan!! I would like to do a three month experiment to see how this diet affects my cholesterol levels though. The three month example in the book is pretty inspiring...

I wonder if everthing in the book is really true? Seems so opposite of what you hear everywhere else.....


Any thoughts??
 
I've read it. It pretty much just confirmed what I had read in books by other people like Neil Barnard and Dean Ornish and John McDougall. I've been a vegan for quite a while (primarily to do the least harm to other creatures on our planet),so it didn't change my diet much, but it did motivate me to eat more greens!

I like that it has lots of references to studies and to epidemiological evidence from all over the world, rather than just opinion. And it speaks to long-term health rather than just weight loss. (I don't like the fact that the subtitle makes it seem like a weight-loss book only, because it's got good info for people in genera, but I assume the publishers had something to do with that, as it might sell better in a country where over 2/3 of the population is overweight.)

" What you hear everywhere else" is often based on selling specific products, or may be sponsored by some industry (dairy or meat) promoting their products.
 
It seems a bit more extreme than a lot of what you read, but it makes perfect sense, don't you think? Most of what you eat should be what's best for you: fruits and vegetables. If you've followed the research on antioxidants and aging over the years, it doesn't come as a surprise. I must admit that it surprised me that broccoli had more protein than steak, though. :)

I'm deeply skeptical about most nutritional advice, but this book really impressed me. The fact that he references Bruce Ames is a big plus. Ames is very well respected and one of the best scientists out there. I saw him speak a few years ago and his perspective on fruits, vegetables, and pesticides is truly brilliant.
 
I must admit that it
>surprised me that broccoli had more protein than steak,
>though. :)
>

There are a couple of places in "Eat to Live" where I thought "yeah..but!" This is one of them. Percentage-wise, broccoli has more protein than steak, but you'd have to eat a lot more broccoli than steak to get a certain amount of protein. I'm not saying that steak is better, because I believe Americans eat too much protein (even without being on a high protein diet), but the way Fuhrman compares the two is kind of like fuzzy logic. It's unfortunate, because most of his info is dead-on.
 
Kathryn,
Your comment about the broccoli is correct. His information is correct, but who can eat 100 calories of broccoli?? What I am thinking is how can you possibly eat enough vegetables to cover your protein requirement? You cannot, that is why it is necessary to eat beans and tofu, for example. Also, how does he address complete/incomplete proteins? There is a little "nutrition quiz" in the book that says you don't have to combine anything. That goes against what you learn in FON 101.


What appeals to me about this book is how it teaches you WHY you should eat this way. I want to adopt a way of eating that is best for my health, not necessarily my waistline (although if I eat right, I do believe I will lose weight). Weight loss would just be a fringe benefit.

But I must admit, I am afraid. I have had the "bodybuilder" mentality for so long, that going totally non-animal scares me but I really want to see what happens. Especially with my lipids!

Kathryn.. I am going to go to Trader Joes and Sprouts this weekend here in PHX. Can you give me some recommendations for your favorite vegan fare?? Give me an example of what your diet is like, including dressings for your salad, if any....thanks!
 
Janice....I am really glad you got this book and as you have read I never thought I would consider vegetarian but Kathryn has made some very good points that I agree with totally. I am envious she has been vegan so long and I just started...:)...I will tell you I had the bodybuilder image too, mainly from doing the Zone diet for about 6 years. The first week on this diet I did have trouble...withdrawals because of all the trash I cut out. And seriously....My DH and I were going to do the modified diet with a bit of animal protein, but after the first week when I was adding some chicken to our salad...he said.."I thought we were not going to eat animal protein?" that was all it took for me and him and I do feel better than ever. I have used beans (any kind) mostly canned for protein also. I do use Whey protein powder in the morning shake after my workout for muscle recovery and to fill that "I need more protein because I work out" as it still goes thru my head...:)..I am also curious about getting my cholesterol checked as it has been about 5 years and it was 200...which I think kinda high for a marathon runner! It also took me awhile to be content eating salads twice a day, but it helped finding a dressing I liked. Spectrum Naturals Zesty Italian...yum! I also put a quarter of an avocado in my lunch salad daily and have bought raw walnuts for the Omega 3 fat. I have really tried many diets, but so far got the fastes results with this one and like Kathryn says...it should be veiwed as a lifelong commitment, not just a diet....
 
There is a little "nutrition quiz" in the book that
>says you don't have to combine anything. That goes against
>what you learn in FON 101.
>
>Kathryn.. I am going to go to Trader Joes and
>Sprouts this weekend here in PHX. Can you give me some
>recommendations for your favorite vegan fare?? Give me an
>example of what your diet is like, including dressings for
>your salad, if any....thanks!

I also think he doesn't address the "complete/incomplete" protein question very well. Complete proteins from the plant kingdom are soy, quinoa, and hemp. All others are usually lacking or low in some amino acid. As far as food combining, he's correct in that you don't have to eat beans and rice together to get the benefit of the synergistic combining of the amino acids, but he should have mentioned that these different foods should be eaten within a day or so of each other. I guess he's just assuming that people will eat a varied enough diet that includes both beans and grain, for example.

Some vegan stuff I like (I'm not into complicated fare, and often am a very lazy cook, but I just cook for myself for the most part)!
Yams (microwave one for 5-7 minutes, depending on size).

Lentil soup (I'm lazy, so buy canned, but it can be pretty high in sodium, so I've recently been buying the unsalted stuff. It can be pretty bland, but I decided to mix in some miso (a salty paste made from soybeans). Just be sure when you use miso to never boil it (it contains beneficial enzymes and acidophilus, like yogurt). I wait until I've heated the soup, then mix some miso in with some of the liquid that I scoop out, then add the combo to the soup.

Stir "fried" (I usually sauté in some cooking sherry or mirin--a rice wine--sometimes with a little bit of oil) veggies (some favorites are red peppers, onion, broccoli, mushooms) and seitan (a high protein food made from wheat gluten). Sometimes with tofu as well. You can find seitan in several forms, from the cheapest "make it yourself" version starting with gluten flour, to boxed mixes, to the more expensive prepared seitan, either frozen or in a jar. I like to keep a couple of packages in the freezer. Seitan has a very "meaty" texure, and if you make your own, you can vary the texture from very dense (if cooked longer at a simmer) to "puffier" (if cooked at a low boil). I once made chili with seitan, and one of my office mates was convinced that I used meat!

I like a "can-opener salad" made from one can each black beans (or black soybeans), garbanzos, green beans, kidney beans (I love beans!). I small jar pimentos. You can also add artichoke hearts, or sliced olives, or various pastas. I put a little bit of zesty Italian dressing on it (just enough to moisten). With most other salads, I don't use dressing.

I also just "invented" (!) a bean salsa: 1 can black soy, 1 can chopped tomatoes, with liquid reserved, 1 can corn (optional), 1 large or two small avocados, in chunks. Mix about 1/2 of the reserved tomato liquid with salsa seasoning. I use it as a dip with black bean or red or blue corn chips, or as a filling for tacos or wraps.

For breakfast, I like "GoLean Crunch" (The main ingredients are whole grains, not flour) with blueberries (sometimes almost equal amounts of both!) and Silk Enriched Soy Milk.

In winter, I like oat groats (whole oats chopped in half) with ground flax, maple syrup, and soy milk.

In summer, I like to make a huge fruit salad for breakfast: 1 mango, 1/2 cup blueberries, 1/2 cup other berries, 3/4 cup soy vanilla pudding. (Measurements approximate: as with all my "recipes," since I live alone and can pretty much just eat whatever I want, I just kind of throw together whatever amount looks/tastes good to me!)

For snacks, I've recently been into sliced cucumbers dipped in spinach hummus. I've also made my own hummus, using either sprouted garbanzos (sprout for about 3 days--you won't see an actual sprout, but the sprouting process has begun) mixed with hummus ingredient, but cutting down on the oils (no tahini, for example).

As for bodybuilder mentality vs. veganism, I know there is one guy who is a vegan and a registered dieticien (In fact, I've met him) who's written a bit on veganism and bodybuilding. Jack Norris is his name. He has a web site with lots of info on vegan nutrition, but I don't know the URL (there may be a link to it from www.veganoutreach.org , of which he is one of the founding members).
 
Uh-oh Kathryn, you said the "P" word!!!!! (pasta)


I was inquiring about your diet, since in the book Dr Fuhrman frowns upon oil consumption that is not naturally occurring, and all chips, PASTA..blah, blah. Wanted to know if your diet was as bland as his!!:)

I'm really waiting to get to the chapter addressing how to make all these green veggies edible. I don't think I am too bad in the veggie dept, definitly not fruit. Weekends I am bad, but I eat better in that department than most. Usually when I sit down to have a salad it is NEVER iceberg and it can easily reach 5 cups. Usually more. It is just that it has bacon bits, and feta, and croutons........you get my drift.


Oh, but I need some kind of dressing!! I don't want trans fats, but I guess I don't want olive oil either!HA! Kathryn, you had some great suggestions, which I am going to take with my to the "health" store here. More than half of this stuff I don't have the slightest clue what it is, so research will be needed!! It seems like until you know how to prepare some stuff on a vegan diet, that following it will be really hard. I may end up having to eat a meat or fish once a week or so. I can't imagine I would ever be able to convert hubby!
As far as Dr. F addressing the protein complementarity, he does say something about it, real quick, blink and you'll miss it! Something like you get 8 essential amino acids from veggies/fruit and your body combines the essentials and pulls the rest (the ones you get from a complete protein) from your body until you get a complete protein again. In my "bodybuilder" mind, it sorta said "muscle atrophy". LOL!! I guess I can just make sure to eat beans/tofu/TVP with all meals. I don't really want to lose muscle mass, and I know one of the points of this diet is to crank your weight down so you can live to be 120. I don't know if I want to live to be 120 and scrawny or live to 90 buff and sculpted. Now I must figure out how to modify this diet to have both! I am going to try it as close to "as is" at first though to get an idea of what my blood lipids will do. I want to be able to say that the reduction was from diet alone. I may end up eating out once per week though, again, can't imagine hubby going along with this...

Carole...what is the poundage lost so far? Not that I care, but I care.:)

By all means, if anyone has any other vegan recipes or ideas (Kathryn is my kinda-woman, quick and easy...oops that doesn't sound right)I would love them. The simpler the better, or complicated but it must taste like awesome for me to put out major effort. Thanks guys!!
 
Janice...the poundage for me so far is 16 lbs. Which gets me to my goal. My DH has lost 26...Kathryn has some great recipe and snack ideas, except the yams....HUGE YUK...x(....but all the others sound great and as for pasta...probably after the initial 6 weeks of "Eat to Live" you can have like lentil pasta or at least whole grain pasta of some sort, but I think he uses lentil pasta in one of the 6 week recipes... For some of the vegetables I have used hummus as a vegey dip but have not made my own like Kathyrn...yet...:)...Carole
 
> Uh-oh Kathryn, you said the "P" word!!!!! (pasta)

I did mean quinoa pasta, or whole wheat pasta, or soy pasta (and it is optional)
>;-)
>
> I was inquiring about your diet, since in the
>book Dr Fuhrman frowns upon oil consumption that is not
>naturally occurring, and all chips, PASTA..blah, blah. Wanted
>to know if your diet was as bland as his!!:)

Bland is really a matter of adapting your tastes, at least to some degree. And adding herbs and spices takes the bland away.



Oh, but I need some kind of dressing!! I don't
>want trans fats, but I guess I don't want olive oil either!HA!

I think Dr. Fuhrman includes recipes for some dressings with a bit of olive oil in? The key, for him, is to limit its consumption. That's why I like using cooking sherry for stir frying. It not only adds flavor, but unlike broth or water or other things you could do this in, it also adds a mouth feel that is similar to oil.


It seems like until you know how to
>prepare some stuff on a vegan diet, that following it will be
>really hard. I may end up having to eat a meat or fish once a
>week or so.
Why? Pick up a good vegan cookbook or two when you're at the health food store! Or check out www.vegsource.com for recipes and ideas. Seitan can be used in many ways meat can, so it's kind of a no-brainer. Tofu can be crumbled and frozen, then thawed to replace ground beef/turkey/chicken. There are ready-to-eat vegan meals available in the frozen food section, as well as boxed meals that are easy to prepare.

A good general reference book for veganism is "Becoming Vegan." Lots of good nutritional info as well as meal ideas.

As far as Dr. F addressing the protein
>complementarity, he does say something about it, real quick,
>blink and you'll miss it! Something like you get 8 essential
>amino acids from veggies/fruit and your body combines the
>essentials and pulls the rest (the ones you get from a
>complete protein) from your body until you get a complete
>protein again. In my "bodybuilder" mind, it sorta said "muscle
>atrophy". LOL!!
Does sound a bit strange! Actually, from what I've read, the incomplete amino acids are "held in reserve" until you eat something that provides the complementary amino acids that are missing. I've never heard of the body pulling the amino acids from your body in the way Fuhrman seems to suggest. It does sound like a recipe for muscle atrophy. You could always pick up an old copy of "Diet For a Small Planet," (the first edition) (maybe at a library?)which talks all about protein complementarity and has recipes. The second and subsequent editions aren't as anal about combining the foods within the same meal, but the first edition gives recipes that scrupulously combine proteins to make complete proteins.


I guess I can just make sure to eat
>beans/tofu/TVP with all meals. I don't really want to lose
>muscle mass, and I know one of the points of this diet is to
>crank your weight down so you can live to be 120. I don't know
>if I want to live to be 120 and scrawny or live to 90 buff and
>sculpted.
When I figured my "ideal weight" according to Fuhrman, it was what I weighed when I was a skinny 15 year old! No thanks! That's why I think his ideas are good for a basis, but I see no harm in adding a bit of olive oil or pasta (the good kinds).
Neil Barnard has a couple of books out with a vegan meal plan that is similar to Fuhrman's, but a little more lenient.

Kathryn is my kinda-woman, quick and
>easy...oops that doesn't sound right
}(
 
Thanks Kathryn..

I am trying not only to go vegan (maybe a splurge once per week if I find it impossible with hubby) but to also healthy up my diet. Frozen dinners I would like to get away from, unless they too are super healthy. I do not know though. This is the first time I will have ever looked for a frozen dinner at a health store. Usually it is Lean Cuisine...


I don't know how in the world I could incorporate this diet with my hubby. Today we went to a chinese place and I ordered something completely different...with tofu and spices and lots of veggies, even edamame on the side. He cringes at almost every vegetable except broccoli and salad. You would think he was going to break down and cry when I asked him to just TRY what I was eating. He gave me a good fight, but finally tried it. Turned out to be WAAAYY too spicy for him, but I tried to explain to him that just because he did not like mine for how it was spiced, does not mean he could not order the same dish blander. He just can't see that. He thinks automatic "YUCK" and will never try it again. The little rife instigated a conversation on his close mindedness concerning all foods. How do you improve someone's health and help him lose weight (he wants to) if you can't get them to eat vegetables or fruit? He just "forgets". My husband eats about 2 meals a day. One at 10 am that he calls "breakfast", which is usually left over pizza or a quesadilla or something. Then, he goes to work and doesn't eat a thing again until about 6 or 9. Then it is pizza, or some other junk. He thinks when he eats at Shogun Express and gets white meat chicken teriyaki on white rice that that IS the healthy choice. He needs veggies!!! First we tried a pizza shop in an upscale neighborhood. They had cheeses like fontina and "weird things" on there pizzas. He said, "this is too yuppie for me". Like, he can't understand the words! I said, "Why Honey, Fontina is just a cheese. It is a fontina and mozzarella pizza. So, what do you not understand". But, the door had already slammed shut in his mind.

I am thinking I will do the "trial" three months, feeding him some of the recipes when I see him, which is not much. Maybe after he sees my results he will be motivated.

Kathryn, it bothers me about the calorie intake on this diet too. Did you see the picture of Dr. Fuhrman in the back? HE looks like a laboratory rat that has been running around on that wheel all his life!LOL! Sorry, but regardless of what Dr Fuhrman thinks, I don't think there is any way in good health I will ever get to 95 pounds. I weigh 134 now at approx 22%BF, so I can't imagine!! I could get there, but now without a whole lot of muscle wasting. I noticed a segment in the book where he comments that most of his clients remark that people start telling them that they are looking too skinny. He says that when he actual measures their belly fat that they still have too much fat on them!!! I guess he wants you to look like a pole...

The lack of any substantial protein source scares me, but like you said, seitan can be used. I will look into that. It is kinda laughable how he only suggests eating all the veggies you can and fruits and then 1 cup of beans...it's like, "yah, but what about everything else?"! HA!

What I found absolutely outrageous was that there was not even ONE chapter or even sentence about water intake. That is so whacky!!! Especially with all the fiber you would be consuming!! But, I guess the book was entitled "Eat to Live" and not "Drink to Live". LOL!

Carole motivates me, she has done so well. I am looking forward to not having to concentrate so much on a protein source. I much prefer just eating fruit and veggies. Thank Goodness for the fruit though. I imagine I will be eating a TON of that. I just had my lipids measured and am shopping this weekend, so I will start this way of eating on MON. Then, three months I can measure my lipids again. This will be my own little experiment!! How fun!!
 
Janice....not sure where but he does talk about water. Saying if you eat all the fruits and vegeys you should that you would only need about 3 8oz glasses, unless you exercised. It could be in the part he talks about Atkins and how Atkins wanted you to drink water to be heathly, but really water is greatly needed with all that animal protein on Atkins. Myself...I have always drank about my body weight in ounces of water. Now I drink about 100 ounces because of the hot weather, but I did notice with all the fruit intake, it does have the same effect on me that water does...:)...Carole
 
Kathryn- I made your can opener bean salad last nighht. I haven't tried it yet, but it does look so good!!!! I did add one c. of WW pasta to it. Thatnks for the recipe, I love beans.
Lori
 
>Kathryn- I made your can opener bean salad last nighht. I
>haven't tried it yet, but it does look so good!!!! I did add
>one c. of WW pasta to it. Thatnks for the recipe, I love
>beans.
>Lori

Hope you like it!

I was pleasantly surprised that it was a big hit at a departmental picnic we had this past fall(my offerings have sometimes been looked at with scepticism in the past, even though I keep the really "strange" things to myself--no tempeh salad for those folks). I also love that it's really a no-brainer to make. I hardly ever cook using recipes, and sometimes even though the end results sound good, the recipes themselves just look like too much work (I will hoist mass quantities of dumbbells, but I hate to put too much effort into cooking, since it's usually just for me).

Janice: your hubby sounds like a typical 12-year-old! ;-) Changing one's tastes does take a bit of time, and some motivation to do so. Sounds like he's not at all motivated to try. Must be frustrating. Maybe when he sees the results of your cholesterol tests in a month or so he'll be willing to give it a chance.

The former secretary in our department was someone who ate lots of typical American high-fat, low nutrient foods. She'd often make funny faces at what I brought for lunch (when she thought I wasn't looking), though once in a while she'd say in the most astonished tone "That looks good!" Mostly that kind of automatic "yuk" reaction similar to your DH's. (As if I purposely ate "bad tasting" food!). (I actually have that reaction now to white bread--yuk--and sugary foods---astonishing for someone who used to put sugar on almost EVERYTHING possible, from tomatoes, to celery, to oranges, when I was a teenager).

She would be someone who would not want to change her eating habits (though she often would go on diets and drink nothing but Slim Fast for lunch for several days in a row, then binge on a cheese burger on the following day). She once said she'd do "anything"to lose weight, but that "anything" only seemed to include pills (she was about to take Fen-Phen/Phen-Fen? when they took it off the marked) or liquid meals. Not exercise or even a less sedentary lifestyle or healthier food.
 
Kathryn- That salad was AWESOME!!!!!!!! It is DEEE-licious!!!! Thanks for the recipe. I really, really, liked it.
Lori
 
I was a vegan for 4 years and vegi for 7 years. I now eat a balanced diet that included meat, eggs, and fats. I think alot of people who give up meat think they're better, healthier, but they replace the meat and fat with carbs, processed carbs, and that ain't good. Our diet has changed more in the past 60 years than it has in the last 40,000! The human body doesn't change that fast!

We surrived on a diet of meat, vegetables, fruits and nuts. Have our bodies really chagned that much?

Though i was eating protein from beans, tofu, etc...it wasn't enough for me. I needed more. My body was flat, my skin not the best, and my engery up and down. Eating eggs again (first) was the best choice i ever made. My CHOL went down by 70 points! I believe that when you stop eating CHOL your body makes what you're not getting from your diet. Every cell in your body is coated with CHOL. Every hormone in your body is made of of fat as its main source.

If you're going to be a vegan, or vegi, do it right. Eat right. Veg. Good sources of protein, organic, and not fill up on carbs that will only do more damage in the long run that good.

Wayne.
 
I do agree Wayne as most Vegans I have known over the years ate alot of processed food. But my Pastor has been a vegan all his life due to his religious beliefs and he is also a triathlete and has won many competitions, he has also shared alot of recipes with me. If anyone chooses to follow the "Eat to Live" diet, they will be doing the Vegan route the correct way...:)...Carole
 
I think that with any program, meat or vegan based it can be as healthy or as unhealthy as we want it.

Thanks Carole.

Wayne.
 
Thanks Wayne. Yeah, I am going to be sensible about this. I will adjust the diet to fit ME. I would be happy just training myself to use very few condiments such as bacon bits, feta, croutons, and that stuff. Even if that is all I get out of this. I will still eat fish a couple times per week, and if I need a little meat, by all means I am going to eat it. One of my main goals also of this program is to GET AWAY FROM eating processed foods, namely trans fats. I want to retrain my taste buds, if you will.


Hubby and I did both agree that we don't think we eat any meal EVER that excludes some sort of animal product. Incorporating more bean-based vegetarian meals into our diet on a weekly basis can only be a good thing. Rest assured though, HE will never give up meat. I only wanted to do the diet suggested in the book full-bore to use it as an "experiment" for a few months.

I do hate to say this, but all the vegan people I have known are excruciatingly skinny and one even developed severe chronic fatigue and eventually died (heart related) at the young age of 30 after doing this sort of extreme vegan diet (gluten free, wheat free, all that). Again, I am not fully educated on all of this, I just have these people to look at as examples.

I really don't get much pleasure out of eating meat personally though. I would be just as happy eating salad, fruit, and nuts for lunch. It is just that the bodybuilder in me won't have it! I force feed myself protein sometimes so I am looking forward to the break. Maybe I can concoct a shake out of soy milk and protein, just to be safe.

Kathryn...I am going to make your bean dip now. I can't resist. I am shopping today.

Carole..please keep me updated on your results as they come along. Are you eating any meat or olive oil?
 
I do hate to say this, but all the vegan people I
>have known are excruciatingly skinny and one even developed
>severe chronic fatigue and eventually died (heart related) at
>the young age of 30 after doing this sort of extreme vegan
>diet (gluten free, wheat free, all that). Again, I am not
>fully educated on all of this, I just have these people to
>look at as examples.
>
>
Y0u must be seeing some people following extreme diets. I'm not at all "excruciatingly skinny" (though I'd like to be in the lower body a bit more!)and I've met vegans from all spectrums of body types and weights (excluding, perhaps, the obese). The person who died at 30 was probably not just vegan, but may have had an eating disorder. Some people with anorexia are attracted to vegan or vegetarian diets because it's another way of limiting food choices. Unfortunately, that can give the rest of us a bad name because people assume that their problems are because they are vegan, not because they are anorexic or bullimic or whatever. I'm sure that her diet was more than "gluten free, wheat free," which in itself could be very healthy (it doesn't at all exclude beans or veggies or other healthful foods).
 

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