Deep Squats for the Long Legged

[Gobias]

Question for those of you with long legs (*and* short waisted).

I notice during narrow & wide squats, side lunges (with or without gliders) and one-legged squats (with or without gliders), I just cannot get my butt down to parallel/90 degree position like Cathe and crew does in the videos. I can do split legged front and side squats and lunges and get down to 90 degrees without issues.

Is it just because I am tall, and the majority of me is leg? I watch myself in the mirror and it isn't because I am not flexible (in the ankles or anywhere else), it is because I will tip over. I will lightly hold on to a chair and do it without weights just to check my form - my knees extend way beyond my toes, even with my butt back and if I let go of the chair, I tip over.

My question is how far beyond my toes can my knees go to stay safe? It is pounded into my head to not let my knees extend past my toes, but that will only allow me to squat down to maybe a 45 degree angle (not a parallel 90 degree angle). If I let my knees go beyond my toes, I can go down a bit lower, but again, I can't get to a 90 degree parallel position because I will tip over.

Being extremely bored a few weeks ago, my girlfriend, who is about an inch shorter than me, but has an inseam 4.5" less than me was able to go squat down a lot further even though we are about the same height. I just think it is because my leg levers are too long, causing my knees to extend past my toes.

I will squat as far down as I can go without tipping, but it isn't close to parallel. I don't have knee issues.

 

[desertambrosia]

I have long legs as well. I have been lifting for years, constantly working on my squat. I'm at the point where I can squat A to G (ass to grass) without a problem. Here is something to try... a goblet squat. Holding a fairly heavy kettlebell, or dumbbell, with both hands in front of your chest, squat as low as you can go, pushing your butt back, and using the weight as a counter balance. A barbell, front squat, may also work. Keep practicing, and working on getting lower. Try to keep your knees just over, or behind your toes. Hope this helps, it will come with practice.

Another recommendation... I have been using Mark Lauren's Mobility Rx DVD. Getting older, I'm losing flexibility. I've really never been a Gumby, but it has made a big difference in my mobility and flexibility. Incorporating flexibility and mobility training into a rotation, may just be the ticket. Wishing you the best with your training, and hoping my suggestions have been useful.

 

[Justinef]

Another leggy person here. Yes, it can be trickier, but Karen has given good advice. I was reading recently that we should aim to get our bottoms between our feet, and keep our chests up - when doing a back squat thrusting your elbows forwards at the bottom can help to retain balance.
The other thing is that I can't keep time with shorter people and get deep. So I have to go at my own pace.

 

[MomInVT]

Hi Gobias,
When I read your post, I thought of this video:

It's part 3 in a 3-part how-to-squat series (by Girls Gone Strong co-founder Molly Galbraith). The whole series is worth watching, but in part 3, they specifically discuss how Molly has long legs and a short torso, and therefore needs to squat wide. FWIW.
Roz

 

[lisa_la_machina]

When I read your post, I thought of this video:

Roz, super informative video. I have a wider hip bone structure and narrow squats have always bothered me. Now I know why. Also liked the pointer about experimenting with your toe position.

One question: at the end of this video when Molly is doing the front squats, around time index 7:20, are her knees going over her toes? It looks like they are and I always thought that was a no-no.

Lisa

 

[JeanneMarie]

I have longer legs and a short torso. I can squat below 90 degrees, but here are a few things I've learned along the way....

First of all, it is definitely imperative that your knees not protrude over your toes at all. Your knees should be at 90 degrees. I can't tell you the number of people I've seen mess up their knees with improper squat form. I found that what helped me to be able to get further down was increasing flexibility in my hips and back. Another tip... head up! Do not lower your head as it causes your back to round and thus can be painful on the lower back.

I work out with a lot of short(er) women and one thing I've noticed regarding our squatting and the comparison between my body type and theirs.... they can get up out of a squat quicker than I can. (Just like Justine said!) Granted I've usually got heavier weight on my shoulders, but just the distance down and back up for me makes the timing a bit longer. I've discovered that this doesn't matter at all. Slower, faster, however long it takes.... the main thing is always, always correct form!

 

[maddiesmum]

I remember reading something online about the importance of ankle flexibility for being able to execute deadlifts with heavy weights. This concerned a bunch of incredibly HUGE men discussing incredibly HUGE weights, but I think the theory would still apply to squats for tall people no matter what weight you have on your back. Flexibility, or the lack of it, in the key joints --ankle, knee, hips-- going to have a limiting effect od the possibility of doing atg squats.

I am like Justine: I can't keep up with Cathe's pace on squats, not unless I keep them shallow and the weight really light, so as JeanneMarie says, I do it at my own pace with whatever weight suits me, doing my Cathe-prescribed number of reps, then just rewind her so we are back on track together. No biggie.

Yes, I also found I could go deeper with a goblet squat and these feel very different: had to lighten the weight actually to work on form and balance with this new feel/move. But it's good to have variety in training, right?

Clare

 

[MomInVT]

This is an awesome discussion -- thanks everyone for sharing thoughts/experiences!

One question: at the end of this video when Molly is doing the front squats, around time index 7:20, are her knees going over her toes? It looks like they are and I always thought that was a no-no.

I watched the segment you're talking about -- I see what you mean, but it looks to me like her knees are tracking over her toes, not beyond her toes, which I think is the no-no (though I stand to be corrected here). I just checked myself, and I think my knee/toe alignment is fairly similar to Molly's when I squat deep. I think your knees must go beyond your ankles if you're squatting deep, right?
Also, since bodies are all so different and relative bone lengths are so different, I think that what's 'proper form' for one may be injurious to another, and vice versa. (Or am I just drinking the biofeedback Kool-Aid?)

 

[lisa_la_machina]

I watched the segment you're talking about -- I see what you mean, but it looks to me like her knees are tracking over her toes, not beyond her toes, which I think is the no-no (though I stand to be corrected here). I just checked myself, and I think my knee/toe alignment is fairly similar to Molly's when I squat deep. I think your knees must go beyond your ankles if you're squatting deep, right?

Yeah Roz, this is what I thought--over toes is OK but beyond the toes is not. It was probably just me eyes playing tricks on me. I went back and re-watched, and when the camera was filming a side angle shot it was clear that Molly's knees were where they 'should' be.

Also really like the breathing tip for spinal alignment.

Lisa

 

[JeanneMarie]

I agree that we're all different, so what might injure one may not injure another. Watching Molly in her video at the 7:20 mark, I think her knees are too far over her toes.... but that's just me. I do not allow my knees to go further forward than 90 degrees, ever. I'm certainly no expert, but watching her squat, I would suggest she stick her butt out further and hold her chest and head up higher. Again... that's just what works best for me. She obviously knows what works for her. I've seen so many people injure their knees with squats, that I am hyper sensitive about form.

 

[Gibbee]

I think the knees past the toes is the issue, but over the toes (not beyond) is ok when lifting. Of course leg length, hip width and function, and ankle flexibility play into individual body positioning.

 

[nckfitheart2009]

Hi Gobias,

You have had many helpful information on how to master squat and make comfortable for yourself. As it has been stated above,
pratice makes better. We all need to practice.

One of the misconception about the "offender" when it comes to executing squat and deadlift safely with good form is
the ankle flexibility. The ankle does not play a significant role in supporting the spine. Neither does it help, power lifter for example
to explode while lifting the load back up.

I like to fully understand and get to the bottom of issues. Video below are helpful and were made for Trainers. If you want
to fully understand, feel free to do.

What is important for DL and squat is:

Not round the lower back while executing those move. How? the hip need to hinge further back.
This what Bret refer to as anterior hip tilt. The hip flexion is important---More flexible it is, more comfortable the hinging
process will feel. What also help is the strength of your glute. The strength of the glute help in keeping a neutral spine ( meaning
avoiding to round the back) while executing the move. Glute, hamstrings ---Basically legs. So it is worth investing in working
legs twice for the sake of our spine No one want to be sidelined from fun workout because of an injury. So again it is not just about building a shelf and flaunting it. It is about the health and protecting the spine

Now you might be thinking what has that got to do with knees travelling over the toes???--- The further you comfortably hinge through your hip girdle, projecting your butt further back , less likely your knees will travel further than your toes.

Also more comfortably you hinge back, more likely your posterior chain and your legs will control the load and less likely your spine is taking over.Those are my thoughts on this. At no point we should be feeling it on the lower back while executing the move.

The key IMO is practicing of course, hip flexor mobility, stretch do help as well, Getting the back, hamstring and the glute
stronger do also help. Posterior chain: glute, hip/hamstring and lower back are all connecting and do work together
while executing squat and deadlift. Practicing various foot positions is also important cause anatomically we do not always the
same hip joint.

HTH

 

[maddiesmum]

On the importance of ankle flexibility and mobility (see specifically the last few paragraphs):

http://www.ericcressey.com/the-importance-of-ankle-mobility

So the claim that "the ankle does not play a significant role in supporting the spine" would be questionable.

On these forums, I always think that more perspectives made available to the original poster with a question are better than limited ones. It is rarely true, despite what some may wish, that only one answer is the correct one. What is more likely, is that the original poster is an individual who will need to experiment to find the solution to her problem and according to her own physiology and psychology, on this and every other thread. There is always the possibility for more than one potential answer. We should remain open to possibilities rather than seek to shut them down.

Clare

 

[~Elsie]

Is it possible or even expected to not have the knee travel somewhat over the ankle with narrow stance/suitcase squats? I've eliminated them from any routines, as I find it impossible to have optimal form with these.

 

[MomInVT]

What is more likely, is that the original poster is an individual who will need to experiment to find the solution to her problem and according to her own physiology and psychology, on this and every other thread.

This! I'm realizing more and more how true this is. I've been utilizing range of motion testing while lifting to basically see how my body 'likes' certain movements, as well as micro-variations (which, in the case of this thread would be a slightly wider or narrower stance, toes slightly in or out, etc.).
I've been having some foot troubles, so I approached deadlifting carefully today, and once I'd determined that conventional deadlifts won out over sumo or Jefferson, I tested different stance widths. A narrow stance (narrow than hip width) tested (and felt) AMAZING(ly). This is not 'textbook' form, but it tested well so I went with it, and had a fantastic DL session.
I know Justine and Elsie use biofeedback in various ways, too. I learned a lot from Dave Dellanave's free e-course -- on his website (dellanave.com) you can get it if you sign up for his emails. Interestingly, he notes that most women who have children tend to squat best with one foot slightly ahead of the other, due to carrying their child/ren on the same side of their bodies most of the time. Sounds crazy, but makes sense. And one way to find out what works is to use biofeedback testing.
So much great info. And you can use it for any activity -- it doesn't have to be 'barbell front squat or barbell back squat?', it could be 'running or spinning or walking?'.

 

[nckfitheart2009]

Practicing various foot positions is also important cause anatomically we do not always the
same hip joint.

As I mentioned above it is advised to try various foot position!!!!

I know Justine and Elsie use biofeedback in various ways, too. I learned a lot from Dave Dellanave's free e-course -- on his website (dellanave.com) you can get it if you sign up for his emails. Interestingly, he notes that most women who have children tend to squat best with one foot slightly ahead of the other, due to carrying their child/ren on the same side of their bodies most of the time. Sounds crazy, but makes sense. And one way to find out what works is to use biofeedback testing.
So much great info. And you can use it for any activity -- it doesn't have to be 'barbell front squat or barbell back squat?', it could be 'running or spinning or walking?'.

Thanks Roz for mentioning biofeedback testing. There are other knowledgeable testing in the industry including
dave's. Interesting indeed

 

[desertambrosia]

This! I'm realizing more and more how true this is. I've been utilizing range of motion testing while lifting to basically see how my body 'likes' certain movements, as well as micro-variations (which, in the case of this thread would be a slightly wider or narrower stance, toes slightly in or out, etc.).
I've been having some foot troubles, so I approached deadlifting carefully today, and once I'd determined that conventional deadlifts won out over sumo or Jefferson, I tested different stance widths. A narrow stance (narrow than hip width) tested (and felt) AMAZING(ly). This is not 'textbook' form, but it tested well so I went with it, and had a fantastic DL session.
I know Justine and Elsie use biofeedback in various ways, too. I learned a lot from Dave Dellanave's free e-course -- on his website (dellanave.com) you can get it if you sign up for his emails. Interestingly, he notes that most women who have children tend to squat best with one foot slightly ahead of the other, due to carrying their child/ren on the same side of their bodies most of the time. Sounds crazy, but makes sense. And one way to find out what works is to use biofeedback testing.
So much great info. And you can use it for any activity -- it doesn't have to be 'barbell front squat or barbell back squat?', it could be 'running or spinning or walking?'.

Yes all of this. I have been utilizing range of motion testing as well as beginning to use biofeedback. Seems like a certain stance is good for a day or two. Then the next time a different stance is better. Love this, and pleased you brought this to my attention, Roz.

 

[~Elsie]

This! I'm realizing more and more how true this is. I've been utilizing range of motion testing while lifting to basically see how my body 'likes' certain movements, as well as micro-variations (which, in the case of this thread would be a slightly wider or narrower stance, toes slightly in or out, etc.).
I've been having some foot troubles, so I approached deadlifting carefully today, and once I'd determined that conventional deadlifts won out over sumo or Jefferson, I tested different stance widths. A narrow stance (narrow than hip width) tested (and felt) AMAZING(ly). This is not 'textbook' form, but it tested well so I went with it, and had a fantastic DL session.
I know Justine and Elsie use biofeedback in various ways, too. I learned a lot from Dave Dellanave's free e-course -- on his website (dellanave.com) you can get it if you sign up for his emails. Interestingly, he notes that most women who have children tend to squat best with one foot slightly ahead of the other, due to carrying their child/ren on the same side of their bodies most of the time. Sounds crazy, but makes sense. And one way to find out what works is to use biofeedback testing.
So much great info. And you can use it for any activity -- it doesn't have to be 'barbell front squat or barbell back squat?', it could be 'running or spinning or walking?'.

The Jefferson stance is also beneficial for folks like me with scoliosis. Thank you Dave D, right? I have to do more reps on one side than the other though. So happy that you found a great foot stance to kill those DLs! I actually love doing DLs. Lunges though? Not so much. the 45 degree one I don't mind.

 

[MomInVT]

Elsie, I've been avoiding reverse lunges for months. They really bother my plantar fascia, and cause pain for days after. At least for now. Lateral lunges are OK, so I usually substitute those, or Bulgarian split squats.
I know, Jeffersons are great, right?! I also hear folks with SI joint pain do when with them, since you're moving along 3 planes, not 2. Great that you do more reps on one side to make it work for you. I enjoy them a lot, and should fit them into my week, but for heavy deadlift days, conventional almost always tests best for me. Go figure.
I've also heard folks who don't have a squat rack use Jeffersons in lieu of heavy squats, since it's sort of a squat pattern from a dead stop on the floor.

 

[MomInVT]

In case anyone's wondering: