"Are Men Really Necessary?"

RE:

Dowd doesn't understand that any relationship is a PARTNERSHIP. Give and take, loan and borrow.

My wife and I have sacrificed together over 25yrs of marriage, we have 2 wonderful children. My wife in some aspects is stronger than me, in others I have the forte. Instead of competing we synergize.

My wife works days, I work 3rd shift we've never had anyone stay at home. I'm referred to as MR Mom as I do all the teachers/doctors/dentists appointments. Of course she's home at 3am when there is a domestic disaster.


Marjorie is sarcastic and cynical, who would want to live with that?

Dave
 
RE:

The men I dated before I got married who didn't prefer intelligent women were the ones that didn't last long, and whose names I would have to really think hard to remember - LOL! But seriously, I've always found men who prefer intelligent women to be much better dating, etc. partners. I can't imagine not being able to have an intelligent conversation with someone I'm spending the rest of my life with!! My husband admires my career and my brain as much as he admires the rest of me. It's part of who I am, and that's why he married me - for ME - the "me" inside as much as the "me" outside. Come to think of it ... that's why I married HIM - because he felt that way!! I think part of being compatible is sharing the same philosophies and goals and ideals. I could never be with someone who resented my brain and/or my career. I'm sure intelligence stands in the way for some, but perhaps those particular people who feel their intelligence is standing in the way of relationships are looking in the wrong places, or looking for the wrong kinds of things in a relationship? I don't know - it's never really been a problem for me. It's an interesting question though.

Carol
:)
 
RE:

It pains me that Maureen Dowd opened herself to so much criticism by mentioning her own situation in the article. She is such a brilliant and witty writer, and I really don't think she deserves to be criticized on such a personal level.

The trend that Maureen has noticed in younger women is a trend that I have also noticed. The young women today are very different from how we were when we were young, and I don't think this can be denied. In the article that I read, Maureen was simply pointing out the differences and commenting on where it will all lead. Frankly, I don't think it was one of her best articles, and I'm not crazy about the title she chose for her book. But to me Maureen Dowd is, frankly, a national treasure and she has a unique perspective on things that, to a great extent reflects the thinking of us old dinosaur feminist baby boomers. And, don't forget, for better or worse, there are still an awful lot of us around.
-Nancy
 
RE:

Nancy,

I just have to disagree with you on this one. I think Maureen Dowd is the personification of all that is wrong with the feminist movement. Her brand of ascerbic, male bashing, female demoralizing journalism is exactly what drives women to distance themselves from the "feminists". I don't think Maureen is a national treasure; I think she's more like small pocket change.

Frankly, I long for the days of the TRUE dinosaurs of the feminist movement--the women who fought for real equality and rights--not the feminists of today who really just want to--oh well, I don't really want to start a war here :eek:.

Michele
 
RE:

>Nancy,
>
>I just have to disagree with you on this one. I think Maureen
>Dowd is the personification of all that is wrong with the
>feminist movement. Her brand of ascerbic, male bashing, female
>demoralizing journalism is exactly what drives women to
>distance themselves from the "feminists". I don't think
>Maureen is a national treasure; I think she's more like small
>pocket change.
>
> Frankly, I long for the days of the TRUE dinosaurs of the
>feminist movement--the women who fought for real equality and
>rights--not the feminists of today who really just want to--oh
>well, I don't really want to start a war here :eek:.
>
>Michele

Oh hell, let's start a war, why not? :p Hey, we came through the "regligious beliefs" discussion relatively unscathed, why not feminism?

Once upon a time I was interested in getting involved with women's issues but sort of lost my fire when I realized that modern feminism (as represented by organizations such as NOW) had no interest in ME. I'm a Conservative woman with what are called, somewhat quaintly, "traditional" values. NOW couldn't care less about my needs as an American woman, nor would they celebrate the choices I've made in my life. One only has to visit the extremely partisan NOW website to see where they stand on women like me.

Beyond that, I feel that political feminism (as opposed to women's individual beliefs) encourages women to be self-absorbed "victims" and speaks mostly of "rights" without any mention of "responsibility." Simply being a woman isn't meritorious; it's how one conducts oneself as a woman, and as far as I'm concerned, groups such as NOW would do better to encourage women - especially young women - to make better choices and present themselves with dignity, rather than leading them to believe that everything they do is sacrosanct simply because they are women. Also, it bugs me that the feminists I know still tend to define themselves according to what men are doing or not doing. "I/We can do it because MEN do it" and "I/We are not going to do it like that because that's how MEN do it" are statements that make no sense to me. It's supposed to be about women, not defining everything by men.

Okay, no one flame me. It's all just my point of view. :D

Sparrow

_____________________
www.scifichics.com
 
RE:

Sparrow--

I agree with you 101%. I do believe we are soul mates! You stated my point of view so much more eloquently than I ever could have. I so envy people who can turn a phrase, like you and Pinky.

Michele:)
 
RE:

Michele and Sparrow, I really do respect your opinions. I appreciate Maureen Dowd, but that doesn't mean you have to.

I might add though, Sparrow, that you have never struck me as the conservative, traditional type that you describe. But if you are, I wish all conserative, traditional women were more like you!

I have an aunt who, if you ask her for an opinion on anything, says "ask your Uncle". She has no mind of her own, and believes that a woman's place is ONLY in the kitchen or the laundry room. She is afraid of the world and hides behind my Uncle. We refer to her as "conservative". Maybe she's too extreme of an example though.

Anyway, I think it's fun to share opinions. You won't get a flame war from me unless you say you like Howard Stern. Then I lose it completely. :+

-Nancy
 
RE:

Nancy, I found your opinion quite interesting about your aunt.I do not believe that is the definition of conservative.I am a conservative woman. Your aunt's response on her opinion is more of a self-esteem issue or a generational view on things.I know because I had a mother who did the same.Yet she was a very strong,hard working,and moral woman.There is nothing wrong with that,is there? That is who she chose to be.Just as your aunt has chosen the same thing.The whole point of the matter is that we have the right to say or not say our opinion.Why is it such a problem to just want to stay in the kitchen or laundry room if that is where you want to be. I think it's great that we can now live in a place where we get to say and do what we want.Imagine living somewhere and not even being able to look at the person you are talking to or better yet not being allowed to talk without a man doing the talking for you. I would like to see Ms.Dowd tackle that kind of injustice.

I'm only sharing ny opinion here.And I guess I'm safe because I don't care too much for Howard.(But he is entitled to his opinion and has the right to say or not say what he wants).



Veronika
 
RE:

Veronika -

It's interesting that you mention other parts of the world. My husband is Indian (from India - not Native American), and his niece was over here for a few months with her husband (arranged marriage - her choice though and she is very happily married). India is now going through what we did in the 70's. Women are being given the option of working and not marrying or getting married and working (this is a new option for many women in India right now). The complaints I hear from her are the same I heard from my mom when she started working - that she has to do it all - keep the house, cook AND work. Her husband expects a hot meal and a clean house - although seeing the way my husband and I share the chores kind of opened his eyes. It wasn't that he was unwilling to do that kind of work, but that he never really considered that it had to be done and took that much time. Things are changing in many parts of the world - but as someone else pointed out - I think the important thing to remember is that we have a choice. If your choice is to be a homemaker, that should be considered as good as the choice to work outside the home. We need to do what works best for ourselves and our families.
 
RE:

In my opinion, the only time a woman's high intelligence stands in the way of a good relationship with a man is if the man is just plain stupid. I wouldn't want to marry a stupid man to make myself appear "superior," and I would never respect a man who did that either.
 
RE:

It really depends on the man. Some insecure men have a hard time with their SO being intelligent.

As far as Feminism. I am grateful for the pioneers who have made things better for women.

I am the least conservative woman I know but I could be called traditional in many ways.
 
RE:Labelling

Conservative and Liberal are useless labels. A person can be liberal on things like education and then conservative about the government interfering with personal rights.

It's like voting, is anyone truly a single issue voter? We have to sort out our feelings on each issue as we prioritize and the choose the candidate that will serve those issues.

As a white male, I am grateful for the corrections that have been made as regards to civil rights, ethnic, racial, and gender. I just wish people wouldn't try to hold my representative group in this generation responsible for the previous generations. I haven't repressed anyone, (except when I have to ground one of my kids).


A true conservative = "a liberal who's been mugged"
A true liberal = "a conservative who's been laid off"

Just my 2 cents your mileage may vary

Dave
 
RE:Labelling

>Conservative and Liberal are useless labels. A person can be
>liberal on things like education and then conservative about
>the government interfering with personal rights.
>
>It's like voting, is anyone truly a single issue voter? We
>have to sort out our feelings on each issue as we prioritize
>and the choose the candidate that will serve those issues.
>
>As a white male, I am grateful for the corrections that have
>been made as regards to civil rights, ethnic, racial, and
>gender. I just wish people wouldn't try to hold my
>representative group in this generation responsible for the
>previous generations. I haven't repressed anyone, (except
>when I have to ground one of my kids).
>
>
>A true conservative = "a liberal who's been mugged"
>A true liberal = "a conservative who's been laid off"
>
>Just my 2 cents your mileage may vary
>
>Dave
>
>

First off, Nancy, thank you for your kind words. :) I am not conservative or traditional in the sense that your aunt is at all (DH might just love that, on my more crabby days!) but I am, for the most part Conservative in the Republican/political sense and that is what the feminists I have come across seem to take issue with.

Dave, I agree with you as to Conservative and Liberal beliefs sometimes straddling the line. I usually align myself with Republican beliefs, yet I am pro-choice and think gay people should be allowed to marry. Still, in the context of political feminism and organizations such as NOW, I'm a cold, hard Conservative and unworthy of carrying the feminist banner. :p

Someone once said the definition of a feminist is a woman who was 100 percent in love with being female. I like that. :)

Sparrow

__________________
www.scifichics.com
 
RE:

Well I am a very smart career woman and married to a Fantastic man who absolutely loves and respects me. However, I think if I had not met him in college before career and all that, I doubt I would be married now. My husband is in the military and his co-workers and their wives (mostly stay at home moms (no offense)) treat me like I am from out of space because I think that my career is as important as my husband, don't feel that cooking and cleaning is my responsibility (it is both our responsibility), and don't defer to his opinion on basically everything. In my career I find the same thing lots of men who seem to have gotten married because it was cheaper than getting a maid and a personal assistant. I just haven't run into too many men looking for, "brains". My single male co-worker just asked me to introduce him to some "nice quiet domestic woman" then added "not like you".

:eek:

KIM
 
RE:

Dave,

I hear you. I thought about my post afterward and realized we are more complex than a simple label :eek:.
 
RE: OT

Sparrow,

An interesting exercise is to look at the Republican and Democrat platforms over the last say 70 years. They keep changing. Nothing drastic between terms but over time they swing like pendulums. They try to adapt and change to appeal to voters so they can get their candidates elected.

In my state (Vermont) you don't declare a party alliance. On a primary ballot you ask for a particular party but it doesn't bind you. I really wish we didn't have the party system, I don't think it fits the "Jeffersonian Ideal" of the Constitution.

I hope some candidates start showing up for 2008, i think with 300 Million plus of us we could do a lot better than what we've had to choose from lately. I mean that across the board, Dems and Repubs. Just once I like to vote for someone who I thought was the best instead of the lesser of two evils.

Dave
 
RE: OT

More candidates don't show up because:

1) You have to be a millionaire to run for President because you have to devote 2 years of your life to the campaign
2) You have to have NO skeletons in your closet
3) You are opening up your entire family to trashing by the media and whatever the opposition party is.

Who would want to do that???!!!

Just Do It! :)
 
RE:

Veronika-

I wasn't referring to the fact that my aunt chose to be a SAHM at all. I was referring to the fact that she strongly believes that her choice is best for all women. No kidding. She won't ask me for legal advice because she doesn't believe that a woman can be a competent attorney. If she did ask me for advice, she would double check it with a male attorney. But as I said, she is a very extreme example.
 
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