And one more dog question

hiitdogs

hiitdogs

Cathlete
Good Morning everyone!

I know this is not a dog forum and yet I wanted to ask another question. It just seems there are so many dog lovers and common-sense people on this forum that I would really like to get your opinion.

We have three dogs, one of them a 10-year-old labrador who has been deteriorating over the past several months. A few months ago we got a new puppy because I was worried about my second dog, if Jake (the lab) passes. What do you know Jake got his second wind for a while with the new puppy.

However, the past several weeks things seem to get downhill more. He still has some good days but in general his eating habits have changed (whereas before he would almost inhale the food in a split second, now, if he eats at all, he eats very slowly and not all of it), he seems kind of tired and slow, has a lot of bumps and lumps.

I ended up taking him to a new vet this week, he has lost 18 lbs in 4 months (but he was pretty overweight)they did a biopsie and one of his lumps is actually a mast cell tumor, meaning cancerous. So I decided to do blood tests and urine testing, since we live in AZ valley fever was a possibility. Of course, the blood tests come back showing no indication as to what could be going on with him. However, the vet said that most cancers won't show up in a blood screen.

The vet suggested to do x-rays and/or ultrasound to find out if the tumor has spread. My husband thinks it is insane to spend yet another several hundred $$ on a dog bringing us up to close to $ 2,000 in vet bill over the past several weeks. My husband thinks I am insane to spend that much money on a 10-year-old dog. Especially, since I said that I wouldn't want to do any surgery or cancer treatment anyway due to his age.

I just don't want to speculate on what MAYBE wrong, I am pretty much a matter-of-fact person, give me the facts and the bottom line, I can deal with it and make up my mind based on facts.

I can see my husband's point but I don't want to put my dog down based on speculation that there is a good chance that the cancer has spread based on his current condition. On the other hand, waiting to see if it gets even worse doesn't sound like an appealing option to me either. I don't want to wait until his quality of life is totally in the tank. It's just that Jake is such a trooper, I am assuming that he is in pain based on the excessive panting, changed eating habits, etc and a couple of nights he has been crying. So the vet put him on pain medication, but it does make him quite sleepy.

It just feels kind of lousy to put a price tag on my sweet boy who has been such a great companion for so many years. But $ 2,000 in vet bills do hurt.

Anyone have any suggestions or can come up with a third option?

Carola
 
Awww Carola, poor Jake, I can really relate to what you're going through. I don't know if you saw my post but about a month ago my vet told me he thought he felt a "mass" in my 16 YO mutt. He said I could do an Xray to see if there really is one, but even if there was there wouldn't be anything we could do b/c of her age. Now, a month later, Cosmo is happy, somewhat playful for an old girl, & she seems just fine.

Jake is 10, which isn't quite that old--I don't know, I can't give you a 3rd option, all I can tell you is I would do the Xray. I mean, Cosmo is 16, & I've been told 3 times in her life she was gonna die within 6 weeks, yet here we are, after spending oodles of money, and she appears to be A-OK.

You could still have a good 5 years with Jake if the condition isn't serious. Like I said, if it was me, I'd do the Xray.

Of course, I'd sell my house & live out of a cardboard box if it would help Cosmo.
 
Hi LauraMax,

yes, I remember your post and I did respond to the post, I think I also said do the x-ray. Here I am giving advise to other people that I don't take myself :)

Unlike Cosmo though, Jake's biopsie already came back testing positive for a skin tumor/cancer. With nothing else, like valley fever as we were hoping, coming back on the blood screen, Jakes changed behavior would indicate, according to the vet, that there is a good chance that he has cancer, just by process of elimination.

I would like to believe that Jake could have 5 more years, however, he is a labrador and the breed's life expectancy is 10 to 12 years. I believe Jake is the only dog of his litter who is still alive. If I could give him 5, or even 2 or 3 more years, I wouldn't even blink about the price tag, even if it was $ 10k - my husband would be a different story though.

I know I would be more comfortable doing the x-rays and knowing for a fact what's going on but my husband is dragging his feet. How do you convince a MN farm boy that spending thousands of $$ on an "animal" (in his view) is necessary? Even on a dog that he really likes.

Glad to hear Cosmo is doing well!!! Those little mutts are so resilient, aren't they? Amazing that she proved everyone wrong three times. Looking at her picture I can just imagine her thumbing her nose and saying: "Fooled you, didn't I???" She is pretty cute!

Thanks for everything!!! and have a great day.

Carola
 
{{{Carola}}}

I'm sorry that your having to deal with this. It's hard to make a recommendation since financial situations are different with everybody.

Our Boxer, Gunther, was suspected to have cancer back in May 2005. We probably spent close to $2000 just in getting a firm diagnosis. For us, it was worth it to know what we were dealing with. I would have had a hard time looking back on the situation and not doing what I felt was right by him just because of the money involved. Again, I'm just relating my experience...everyone's situation is different.

My thoughts are with you and Jake. {{{{Hugs}}}}
 
Carola,

I feel for you. It is so hard to deal with when a beloved pet's health changes. We want the best for them. Unfortunately we can't really tell what their quality of live is. I really wish they could tell us because just because they slow down doesn't necessarily mean the worst. If the pain medication seems to be giving him some relief, keep him on it. Or you might try a different kind that won't make him tired. As for spending more money, that's a hard call and an individual one that you & DH will have to decide. As for myself, I would probably have it done so I would know if it was a serious cancer (some tumors are cancerous, but not as severe) or if he is slowing down was just because of something like annoying arthritis. My aussie had breast cancer last december. She's was 13 at the time. We had it removed and she has a good prognosis. So I am glad that I spent the money on her tests and surgery.

Wish you the best in your decision.



Laura Max, glad to hear Cosmo is doing well.

Jean
 
Well I guess the main question is, is this type of cancer treatable without too much discomfort for Jake? If the answer is yes, then go for it. If the treatment requires all kinds of chemo & stuff that would just make him miserable, then the best you can do is give him the best d*mn life you can for as long as you can.

The one thing you have to always remember is you've given Jake a happy, loving, long life, & that he knows it & loves you right back.

BTW, Cosmo is half chow & half lab (the pug is Maximus, he's a little devil). She weighs 90 lbs--she was born with distemper & was given a 5% chance of surviving. Yep, she thumbed her nose alright!

Not knowing your husband I don't know how to convince him, but I still think you should do it, if only for your own piece of mind. Cosmo has proved time & again miracles can happen--you just don't know & you won't until you try.
 
Seriously, Cosmo is 90 lbs? She looks much smaller on the picture, she is the black one on the picture, isn't she? She almost looks like an Australian Shepherd. I guess I have to take back the "little" :) but she is still cute!!

Carola
 
carola,
i am so sorry to hear that you are going through such a hard time with Jake. i know there are several people here with older animals that know how you feel. I have a 13 year old pug that is close. His problem is that he has no feeling in his back legs due to spine curvature, and has trouble walking. The hard part is that his mind is sharp as a tack and he still plays sometimes. It is so hard to know what to do at this time in their lives because you want them to have dignity and a good life right up until the last minute. I don't really know what advice to give you as i am seeking the right answers for my dog as well. we just have to follow our hearts and do what is right for them. i will be thinking about you and hoping for you that whatever happens you will find peace and know you did the right thing.

lauramax, i was just thinking about you this morning wondering how cosmo was doing. i am amazed and so happy that she is still hanging in there. dogs are so much braver than we are at times.
 
Thanks Gayle,

I think you hit the nail on the head. I have the same view, I know I would have a hard time looking back and thinking "should have, could have". I want to do right by him, get the facts and then decide based on facts.

I know I won't put him through surgery or chemo, if it has spread and this wouldn't be based on financial considerations, just based on his age and overall condition. The vet actually also advised against surgery.

We can swing the tests financially, we are no millionaires but we are in a relatively stable financial situation. We just spent oodles of money on other unexpected stuff, so the $ 2,000 vet bill will hurt at this point in time, but there are always credit cards, so I can make the payments over a couple of months.

BTW how is Gunther doing? What kind of tests did you get done?

All the best,

Carola
 
Hi Carola,

Unfortunately, Gunther passed away last October. :( :( He had a nasal adenocarcinoma - a locally aggressive tumor in his sinus. I can't remember all of the specific testing we had done, but I think it started with an x-ray, then rhinoscopy (where they went into his nose with a fiber optic camera, took a sample of the mass, and also tried to reduce its size with a laser), and then a CAT scan at Cornell.

The prognosis was bad from the start. The best we could hope for with this type of cancer was another year, but that was if we opted for intensive radiation therapy, which was radiation treatment five days per week for three weeks in a row.

Gunther was only six years old at the time, but he had been through other medical problems for his entire life. He had a congenital problem with his toenails that caused them to grow in deformed and painful, so he was having one or two surgeries a year to remove those nails. So, we were very sensitive to keeping his final months happy. I didn't want his last days to be undergoing radiation, and dealing with the side effects which would have been difficult given the location of the tumor. We believe he would not have survived the treatment.

Cornell did have a chemotherapy study going on that we were eligible for that we did try. It was three chemo treatments spaced 14 days apart. Aside from having to go under anesthesia and being a little groggy for a day, Gunther didn't suffer any bad side effects from the chemo treatments. Unfortunately, his particular cancer didn't respond to that treatment, but we felt we needed to try.

Sorry if this is long and drawn out. I hope it helps. :)
 
This may be hard to hear, Carola, but perhaps now is the time to let him go. He is suffering, in pain, and not eating much.

When animals tug at your heart the way they do, it is so difficult to say goodbye. Try to be brave.

My heart is with you, as your sweet boy passes on,

Janie

"If you can't say anything nice about someone, then don't say anything at all."
-My mother, Mary Cooper-
 
Oh Gayle, I am so sorry!!! I thought Gunther was still alive and happy, I am sorry I was insensitive and brought it up again.

It wasn't long and drawn out at all!! It did help, and it actually got me to think, maybe both me and my husband are just dreading the tests because then we have the final results and we do have to act on it and I am not sure if either one of us is ready for this. He just emailed me back and said, I think we should wait and see, it's probably just the heat (it's been about 118 degrees) that he has slowed down. I know this is not about us, it's about what's best for Jake.

I am usually kind of a the glass is half full kind of person but in this case I am pretty sure I know what's coming. I know when my dog who must have a vacuum cleaner somewhere in his pedigree :) doesn't clean off the counter tops, doesn't open the pantry on the lookout for food and doesn't eat all of his food in the bowl, there is something seriously wrong.
I have to say, however, Jake was pretty excited at the vet, he was dancing around all the pretty vet techs that spoiled him rotten, trying to impress them. Typical male, I guess they never get too old for that :)
I think I will take this weekend to come to grips with whatever the outcome is and discuss it with DH.

But thank you sooo much for all your input, I truly appreciate it, you helped a lot!

Take care,

Carola
 
You weren't insensitive at all! :) There was no way for you to know.

I'm glad to hear that Jake was being his charming self at the vet's office. This heat is slowing everybody down. Keep us posted on how things go.

Sending many, many positive vibes your way.:)
 
I'm echoing what everyone else has said. It's such a tough call. It really becomes a personal choice.

When our mutt Corky slowed down, we thought he was finally growing out of his puppy stage (at age 9). But he was having trouble breathing, so we took him in. X-rays revealed that he had cancerous tumors throughout his lungs and upper body. We had to put him down a few weeks later. But it was comforting to know that we had a final diagnosis, it wasn't speculation. We knew his prognosis, we knew he had no options left.

I'm keeping you in my thoguhts and prayers. {{{{HUGS}}}}

Claude


"Age is a question of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter." Satchel Paige
 
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