Shedding New Light on Osteoporosis

pink_fortitude

pink_fortitude

Banned
I found this very interesting article on osteoporosis. It states that while our whole lives we have been listening to the government and watching commercials telling us dairy is good for our bones, that fact is that it actually has the reverse affect on our bones. I researched some more and found several studies that showed that the nations with the highest dairy consumption are actually the nations with the highest rates of oseoporosis (us (of course!) Sweden, Danmark, and Finland)!!! And that it isn't just calcium that affects our skeletal system, but a bunch of other key minerals as well (boron, magnesium, copper, manganese). The people that consume the highest rates of calcium from dairy are the Eskimos, and they also have the highest rates of osteoporosis in the world because of their high consumption of animal protein.

It also talks about acidity, which a plan on researching more, that is caused in our bodies due to high animal protein levels and how our body uses minerals found in our bones to even out our ph levels.

Here is a summary of the longer study:

http://www.internethealthlibrary.com/Health-problems/Osteoporosis-researchDiet&Lifestyle.htm

and this is the longer, more science-based and thorough explanation of a study written by several doctors:

http://www.garynull.com/Documents/Arthritis/Osteoporosis_Treatment.htm

I was wondering what your thoughts and comments were on this. I find it very interesting and thought provoking.

Missy
 
I think it's very good to read as much as you can from a variety of sources to educate yourself. The conclusions drawn by the studies you linked to in your post are to be expected because they are both alternative med sites. I'm not saying that they are absolutely wrong, I'm just not convinced that they are absolutely correct. ;) :D

Michele:)
 
I'm a big advocate for a plant-based diet but I disagree and question many of the points and sources in the second posted article (which is really on the old side (1992) but I will comment anyway).

The author states," Vegetarians have a lower incidence of osteoporosis than those on a meat-based diet."

Brenda Davis says, "To date, seven studies have been carried out assessing the bone health of Vegans and of these 3 studies found no significant differences in bone mineral densities of the vegans and lacto-ovo vegetarians. Four of the studies found significantly lower bone mineral densities (10-20% lower on average) in the Vegans compared to those lacto-ovo vegetarians, nonvegetarians or both. In one study of over 800 women in China, the average bone mineral densities of women on dairy-free diets were approximately 20% lower than in those comsuming dairy. In Taiwanese study of more than 250 women, long -term vegans had 2 and 1/2 times the risk of lumbar spine fracture and almost 4 times the risk of low bone mass of the femoral neck. Interestingly, very low protein intakes were shown to be detrimental to bone health."

She furthur added and more importantly to vegetarians, "The weight of evidence suggests that vegans do need to be concerned about long-term bone health." (Davis, Brenda.: Becoming Vegan Book, Publishing Co, 2000)

(I am really hoping to see some really good studies supporting a plant based diet and bone health, but I haven't found any. If anyone has found any...please let me know because I have looked!)

I should also add he discusses Calcium Carbonate which everyone knows is poorly absorbed and why doesn't he talk about the citrate??? Anyway....just my 2 cents.

I will continue to eat my plant based diet and take my much needed calcium citrate supplement so I don't look like quasimodo in 5 years.

Thanks for posting Missy...it was interesting:)

Robin
 
Isn't there some discussion now that vitamin D may actually be more important to osteoporosis than calcium? I seem to remember something like that.
 
Bunbun, I heard that too.

Robin, I'm so glad you posted. I always look up to you in these matters. I think you're objective and knowledgable, and a darn good resource on the forums.

Missy, after looking over my initial post I decided that it came across as curt and dismissive;( . I really did not intend for that, I think I was just in a hurry and therefore gave you short shrift. I'm so sorry and I want you to know that I applaud your search for knowledge. You're one smart chica!

Michele:)
 
>Isn't there some discussion now that vitamin D may actually
>be more important to osteoporosis than calcium? I seem to
>remember something like that.



Can't be sure I'm correct, but I believe vit D is necessary for the asorbtion of calcium. And Robin is so correct, look for calcium citrate. The osteo is a big problem in the women of my family, so I definitely supplement. I'm fine, but I believe it is due to diet and life-long exercise, particularly weights, that my bones are strong.

That's all for the posts. & thanks Missy for starting it. I am always reading re this issue.
 
>>Isn't there some discussion now that vitamin D may actually
>>be more important to osteoporosis than calcium? I seem to
>>remember something like that.
>
>
>
>Can't be sure I'm correct, but I believe vit D is necessary
>for the asorbtion of calcium.

Vitamin D does promote the body's absoption of calcium....I believe it is somewhere around 30 to 80% (without Vit D the calcium is really not absorbed efficiently). You can get sufficient vitamin D from the sun by exposing your arms, face or back about 2 times per week for 10-15 minutes. Personally, I don't like wrinkles and I'm really into sunscreen so I prefer to go the oral Vit D route;-)

Robin
 
Robin, are you a vegetarian and/or vegan? I have given up meat about three months ago and have REALLY cut back on dairy (I eat cheese or yogurt only about three times a week now) and have NEVER felt better. I know all the benefits of leading a plant based diet (huge decline in risks of CVD, cancers and other diseases), but my concern about cutting out so much dairy is, of course, osteoporosis. I know that there are several other sources for calcium, especially in dark green vegetables. I honestly was very surprised to read that it isn't just calcium that keeps our bones healthy, but it is a combination or minerals including vitamin D (which I definitely get plenty of by gardening and running - but always wearing sunscreen, of course! ;) ) boron, magnesium, manganese, among other things I had never heard of. It is also about keeping calcium IN your bones.

I was also wondering, and am hoping that someone would comment on, the fact that animal proteins/high protein diets seem to have such a negative effect on our bones. I don't think that an excess of protein is good for you, just like too much of anything can be detrimental.

I am wondering, also, if anyone has more information and this whole acidic/alkaline approach. I am very interested in finding out more about it, and it seems like it is about keeping your body in balance, or in a ph where it is most unlikely to be in a state that promotes cancer/tumor growth.

Michele, I didn't veiw your post like that, but I do understand your point. I really try to research things as unbiasedly as possible, trying to pull articles from non-vegan and non-dairy commercialized (does that make sense? :p ) sources, even though I know it is difficult to do since so many people have their own slant and agenda. I am looking for charts and graphs that show different cultures and countries that show their cases of osteo. per 100,000. I have already found one for breast cancer, heart diseases and other cancers. I can't seem to find one on osteo, though. I personally DO trust that more than studies, since you can't disprove living fact. Nine years ago, I believed that the only way to have a baby was hooked up to machines with a monitor constantly watching my baby and me, and I was told (by my doctor) that I had to have an episiotomy to deliver my baby and the best way to do that was with drugs so that I could enjoy it more. The truth is, the best delivery I had was with none of the above. I healed faster, had a more comfortable labor and enjoyed my baby more because I got to rock him and hold him while I was completely alert and didn't have a painful, nasty and unnecessary cut on my crotch.

I know that we have come so far in medicine, but we still have so much more to learn and it is changing so much. Studies keep disproving other medical researchers, and so much of this country is driven by money. I don't trust the dairy farmers because they have a monetary interest, and I don't trust the government because it is driven by lobbiests who pay for their interests to be heard and pushed and fund politicians campaigns. Looking at the way that other cultures live and eat and learning about their health and rates of diseases, cancers and other illnesses is what I do believe.

I really don't mean to sound so... preachy! sorry if I did! I love reading everyone's responses, so keep it coming!

Missy
 
I don't really have any information for you except to say that you might want to cut out the middle man and look at actually lab studies. You can search for them here at http://scholar.google.com/ In my opinion, it's much easier to take these for face value than an article based on the study, since anyone can slant the info how they like.

The only other thing I'd like to add is that estrogen and other hormones have a big effect on calcium absorption - heredity is also huge, if osteoporosis is in your lineage you need to take extra precaution.
 
Nine years ago, I believed that the only way to have a
>baby was hooked up to machines with a monitor constantly
>watching my baby and me, and I was told (by my doctor) that I
>had to have an episiotomy to deliver my baby and the best way
>to do that was with drugs so that I could enjoy it more. The
>truth is, the best delivery I had was with none of the above.
>I healed faster, had a more comfortable labor and enjoyed my
>baby more because I got to rock him and hold him while I was
>completely alert and didn't have a painful, nasty and
>unnecessary cut on my crotch.

>Missy


Missy, OB/GYN docs have developed a plan of care for their patients based on what will best protect them against lawsuits. Unfortunately, because they incur more lawsuts than doctors in other specialty areas, MANY of which are frivolous, they have to protect themselves and taking extreme precautions is the best way to do it. I know a fair amount about this because my DH is asked by attorneys across the country to review cases before suits are filed.

Many areas of the country have severe shortages of OB/GYN's because they can't afford the malpractice insurance. My cousin is an OB in Florida. She used to have her own practice but had to close it down and go in with a huge group because it was not affordable for her to be in practice by herself.

So, when you're told by your OB that you have to be hooked up to monitors and such, you have only the women who have gone before you and sued to thank for it.

I could go on and on about this but I'll step off my soap box now--LOL!

Michele
 
>Isn't there some discussion now that vitamin D may actually
>be more important to osteoporosis than calcium?

I recall hearing/reading that as well. And also that other minerals (phosphorous--but not excessive amounts, boron, etc, which are found in green veggies) are at least as important as calcium. I wonder how much of the push for calcium was for the benefit of the milk industry? (the original food groups were created with the goal of getting Americans to eat more American food products.)
 
>I was also wondering, and am hoping that someone would comment
>on, the fact that animal proteins/high protein diets seem to
>have such a negative effect on our bones. I don't think that
>an excess of protein is good for you, just like too much of
>anything can be detrimental.

Excess protein, and especially animal protein (which contains more suphur-containing amino acids, and thus has a more acidifying affect on the body) is detrimental to bone health. Studies have been done that show that regardless of the amount of calcium consumed, if the protein (again, especially animal protein) is too high (the average American diet BEFORE the 'high protein craze" came about supplied sufficient, if not often unnecessary amouts of protein), the calcium will be used to help buffer the acidity, and won't be used by the body.

>I am wondering, also, if anyone has more information and this
>whole acidic/alkaline approach. I am very interested in
>finding out more about it, and it seems like it is about
>keeping your body in balance, or in a ph where it is most
>unlikely to be in a state that promotes cancer/tumor growth.


One book I read recently on the acid/alkaline question is: "Confessions of a Body Builder, Rejuvenating the body with Spirulina, Chlorella, Raw Foods & Ionized Water" by Bob McCauley (which has nothing to do with body building, as I thought it did when I ordered it from www.rawfood.com !, but with building a healthy body) has good info, but it lacks references ( I HATE that!) and the author sells ionized water, so it's hard to tell if he's writing it to push his product (though he does't do any hard sell) or if he's selling ionized water because he believes what he writes I the book (more my impression).

Amazon has the book here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/09...f=pd_bbs_1/103-2935639-2040668?_encoding=UTF8

There is another, similarly-titled, book by the same author that may be an updated version.

You can probably find more info on acid-alkaline at some raw food sites, as raw fooders promote this as one of the benefits of the diet.

Two good rawfood sites I've foud are www.eatraw.com and www.rawfood.com (the later has some pretty hefty shippig prices, but you can see what books are there and then check them out at Amazon).
 
>Robin, are you a vegetarian and/or vegan? I have given up
>meat about three months ago and have REALLY cut back on dairy
>(I eat cheese or yogurt only about three times a week now) and
>have NEVER felt better. I know all the benefits of leading a
>plant based diet (huge decline in risks of CVD, cancers and
>other diseases), but my concern about cutting out so much
>dairy is, of course, osteoporosis. I know that there are
>several other sources for calcium, especially in dark green
>vegetables. I honestly was very surprised to read that it
>isn't just calcium that keeps our bones healthy, but it is a
>combination or minerals including vitamin D (which I
>definitely get plenty of by gardening and running - but always
>wearing sunscreen, of course! ;) ) boron, magnesium,
>manganese, among other things I had never heard of. It is
>also about keeping calcium IN your bones.
>
>I was also wondering, and am hoping that someone would comment
>on, the fact that animal proteins/high protein diets seem to
>have such a negative effect on our bones. I don't think that
>an excess of protein is good for you, just like too much of
>anything can be detrimental.
>

Missy, in answer to your question I no longer eat meat, fish, dairy or eggs.

In response to your other question.... Too much dietary protein and particularly animal protein is known to be detrimental to the bone. I won't get into the mechanism of action, but calcium is drawn out of the bones in order to reduce or buffer the by-products of protein metabolism. (I can footnote and site numerous medical journals and books if you would like to e-mail me.)

My whole point of bringing up these issues is certainly not to knock a plant-based diet ...it is only to make other people aware. I don't want other women to think they are totally "safe" from osteoporosis or osteopenia if they switch to a vegetarian/vegan diet. I also don't want to oversimply the ways to build better bones....like "stop eating meat" and "you don't need dairy for calcium."(heck, there are entire books and medical studies on that and you alone need to decide that for yourself;)). I am not a dietary expert..... I am an expert on what works for me:)

Everyone should eat according to the way "they" function best:) There really is so much controversy when it comes to food and diet.....it is very difficult to sort through what is right and wrong. IMO, the closer to whole foods (meat-eater or vegetarian) you eat.....the better off you probably are:;) If it works for you and you are healthy than it really is the "right" way to eat. Isn't it?

Robin :)
 
Missy,
On a more personal note, I really don't know if we have all the answers. I grew up on milk and dairy products (I had at least a glass every day and was never allowed soda) and yet 7 years ago I was diagnosed with osteopenia in both my hips and my neck. I thought I ate right...I was devastated.

Yes, I was high risk (being thin all my life and having 1 grandmother with the disease).....but I was still shocked. With weight training, calcium supplementation (and the other important bone-building nutrients;)) and the miracles of modern science (medication) I was able to get my bone density within normal limits (my neck is just barely under the numbers).

Of course, people can take too much calcium as well leading to kidney stones, arthritis (when accompanied by magnesium deficiency) and a host of other problems so any supplementation really needs to be checked with a doctor so it can be done carefully.

I think this is really a great topic. Maybe other women will think about getting a DEX screening:)


Robin
 
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