Had to hire a dog behaviorist.

janie1234

janie1234

Cathlete
Gayle and Lisa (lrayburn) I hope you see this.

I had to hire a doggie behaviorist. :( My 4-5 month old puppy was exhibiting signs of dominance and I mean dominance. He would push us off the sofa, push my kids around and when we would stand our ground he would bite. Yes bite not mouth (little to no bite inhibition) and I mean chomp. Now Georgie is no pomerainian. He's going to be a big boy and at 40lbs right now he is all muscle.
So the behaviorist gets here and in 5 minutes and with one bloody scratch he calms Georgie down to the point where he is yawning on the floor laying down like the perfect gentlemen. He was just like Cesar Milan and the Dog Whisperer. Here is the thing, he wants us to use a choke leash (dominant collar, slip collar, english collar) they have so many names but what it boils down to is that it IS a choke collar. I mean I get it we have to be the pack leader yada yada yada. Show him who's boss. Positive reinforcement. So the choke leash works and we show him plenty of love when he deserves it but I'm getting seething looks like I'm the spawn of satan from people who walk by. Georgie is going to be a big boy possibly 70-80lbs we NEED to get a handle on this dominance behavior now while he's young. I just feel that it is the responsible thing to do but I need to know I'm doing the right thing. I get that choke and prong collars are not popular and I get that I wouldn't like to have that on my neck either BUT I don't want him jumping and biting people either and we are 100% committed to him. I believe in the right tool used correctly for the right dog.
 
We had to use a choke collar on our Rott several years ago. You may be getting "looks" from people who don't understand. If you are truly committed to keeping your dog, then it is the way to go. You are NOT using it to be cruel to the animal. You are using it to protect your loved ones (including the dog). Some dogs just require more "strength" from the alpha - you DO have to prove who is boss. I understand how you feel! We enjoyed our beautiful long-haired Rott for 10 years & she will always be missed. We had to let other people's opinions slide off our backs & do what was right.
 
I don't know the answer to your situation but I have a good friend who is a professional dog trainer and he does not believe in either of those collars. He also breeds and trains labs. I know that Cesar Milan sells a special collar that keeps the dog's head up so you have better control with the lead. I think it is called the Illusion collar after his wife. Check out his website. Good luck with your puppy and you are so right in that you have to gain control now and be the pack leader.
 
You know what works and as a previous poster mentioned, the looks are obviously from those who don´t understand. Remember, the pain is not as bad as it may seem to us, and in a natural habitat, that is how animals learn. How much worse it would be for your dog to harm a person. and as Cesar says remember: animal, dog, breed, Georgie.
 
Hi Janie - The problem I have with choke collars is that the majority of dog owners who use them don't use them properly. If this behaviorist is using it well and it's working, AND he's training you to use it properly, then that's fine. But keep in mind, it's a TRAINING TOOL and NOT meant to be worn full-time.

I have a very dear friend who's dog was wearing a choke when playing with another dog, when it got wrapped around the other dog's mouth can cut off her airway. Fortunately, my friend was there and was able get the two untangled, but not before her dog passed out unconscious. It was seriously scary and could have ended so badly!

Are you going to be seeing this behaviorist for further visits?

Also, are you doing NILF/NILIF (nothing in life is free)? It REALLY establishes you as the alpha dog - you control the food, the comfort, the love, the access to outside, etc...all things good. When you control all good things, Georgie views you as his benevolent leader that he can rely on. Given Georgie's size, you may just have to be more of a hard-ass about it. ;)

Rascal went through a hellion phase at the 6-8 month stage, and NILF was the best tool out there, but you have to be VERY consistent with it. It took time to get through it, but it helped tremendously. Remember, Georgie is also going through his "obnoxious pre-adolescent" phase where he's testing his boundaries.

Don't worry about the looks from other people, you're a great dog mom! You know you can PM me if you want. :)

NILF Stuff:
http://www.ddfl.org/behavior/nilif.pdf
http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm
 
First, let me say, I'm not an expert, but I have some insight,

all dogs go through puppyhood differently, some take more than 2 years to reach adulthood, some dogs also are quite active and do not start to calm until their 5th or 6th year.

Socialize your dog as much as possible around all kinds of people, animals,
sounds, envirionments, as often as you can. Allow others to handle, touch, if you can. They say alot of what puppies learn happens in the first 6 months, so get busy, and safely expose your dog to knew & interesting things, especially the vet.

Since you have children it is especially important that they not be left unattended with a dog that is the least bit unreliable, safety first.

A behaviorist's job is helping people with problem animals, if you at any time are uncomfortable with what they are doing or what they are telling you, or how they are treating you or your dog you have the right to walk away.

Personally, I don't believe in NILF, even feral cats get that if you give them food everyday, and they are hungry, you are already important in their minds. Animals have their own hierarchy built in.

Food guarding and possessiveness (aggressive behavior doesn't come from there) It I think comes from where the pup was in the litter (top dog?) I happen to think Cesar Millan is the worst thing that's happened to dog training, just like Steve Irwin was one of the worst tings that happened to "conservation" (sorry IMO), why can't we just take good care things instead?

I have used a sensation harness, it will give you control over a dog that lunges, without yanking at the collar or using a choke.
Positive reinforcement is good. The more time you can spend, the better.


Linda
 
I have an opinion on this issue that will not be popular with most. I am a soft hearted person with three pure bred dogs (original breed Irish Setter and two Llwellen Setters).

My husband is a bird hunter. That is why we have this breed. That is what they have been bred to do. He does not believe in having an animal that is just a pet. He believes that they are all bred for a reason. They want to go hunting for birds. It is a diservice to the animal not to use them for their instincts. I believe that because I have been hunting birds with my husband and dogs. My husband would not shoot a bird when I am with him because he knows how sensitive I am. He just really loves being in the woods and watching them hunt. We live in the north woods and it is a fun thing that he likes to do. We love our dogs with a passion. I miss them when I am away.

We use shock collars. It works effectively.

Never used the choke collar, so not sure about that. My dogs are not the kind that you put on a leash and take for a walk. They are independent, but are spoiled and sleep in my bed every night.

I am a huge supporter of the shock collar because we used to have Beagles. My husband used to run Beagles. We had one that was AKC registered that we worked so hard with. It was many years ago, before they had shock collars. She was hunting and they have a tenacity that does not stop. My husband could not find her. She never came home. We found her on the side of the road. :(

I am pretty young (34) so I have not felt the profound sadness of losing a loved one that is human. Losing this dog put my husband and I in a situation that we could not handle at that time. The saddness was so profound. I had nightmares about it. It has been ten years now and we still have a picture of her on our fridge. She was so sweet. Her name was Katie.

I have blabbed a lot, but I think you need to take care of the situation asap! You are the boss. It is not acceptable to have your dog biting. You need to use the choke collar and see if it works.

Our situations are very different it seems. You need to take charge and be the boss.

Gloria
 
112toGuru said:
Animals have their own hierarchy built in.
Click to expand...

Dogs are hard-wired to seek a hierarchy, and if no leader presents itself, they will try to assume that role, often in undesirable behaviors. Its the human's job to make herself/himself a reliable leader (top dog). NILF can be a very valuable tool for this. A lot of rescues (including the rescue we got Rascal from) are proponents of it.

112toGuru said:
Positive reinforcement is good. The more time you can spend, the better.

Linda
Click to expand...

ITA on this.
 
Hey Gloria - My FIL used to run his Beagle. I know we had more than one sleepless night when he didn't immediately come home. I certainly won't give you grief for using a shock collar for hunting, where you need long range remote control of your dog. Unfortunately, I see a fair share of people who immediately glob onto a shock collar for every minor behavioral issue and with absolutely no training.

On another note (sorry to hijack Janie), during my hunting days, my uncle let me take his English Setter partridge hunting. It was truly cool to see him find and point a bird.
 
Janie -

You are the one who knows what is best for your dog. I have tried EVERYTHING to get my dog to walk without pulling. I have tried: harness, a harness that pinches in the front, loose leash walking technique, giving her a bit of freedom on the leash, etc. I am now using a "choke chain." It works after a while...after she is tired. Until then, she still pulls and sometimes it sounds like she is choking herself. After half a block, I can then walk her at my side with gentle corrections/pulls back on the chain. I actually thought she was getting better so tried to go back to the harness...NOPE! She pulled to the point where I turned around and came home! My husband wants to try the Halti. I am concerned that it will cause my girl to snap her neck! We have done very well with other NILIF training techniques - waiting to be fed, sitting before going out, etc. Pulling on the leash and dog aggression are two we have not been able to crack.

Good luck in whatever you choose. I would love to hear how it goes for you.

Carrie
 
Hope you get the help you need with your dog Janie1234,

Gayle, I guess we'll just disagree on that one, I don't think dogs seek to find status, in a group, or assume the role if one does not exist, at least from what I read, I tend to think they don't have the make up for that. I do think the first 6 to 7 weeks of a dogs life are critical, most importantly for all dog owners, when you get a dog, be in for the dog's natural lifespan, if not try to find someone who will be.

One thing I wish people would do or be required to do, is know where the dog you purchase, or adopt came from, as much information that you can get, I really think anyone in the business of selling, adopting out should be required by law to give that information. Many serious on going problems with animals being abandoned or having behaviorial issues could be prevented or addressed, at least then you could find the source.

As always, if you are not qualified, licensed, to breed, and have no immediate interest in breeding, please spay or neuter your dog.

Respectfully, Gloria I don't think shock collars are appropriate for animals, I won't deny that some people have success with them, I don't think they should be legal, nor stun guns on people, just my opinion.

Good Luck with your dog

Linda
 
Not sure if this was mentioned, but never ever leave a choke collar on a dog. If used properly(never let them have a constant pull against it) they can make a great tool for leash walking. But never, I repeat never, leave it on a dog. I have known too many horror stories of dogs getting caught on something whether inside or out. I personally accidentally left one on my golden retriever recently. Wasn't thinking and only unclip the leash instead of taking off the collar too. A little while later, I saw holding her head weird. She had some how slipped the collar over her lower jaw into her mouth and basically had the choke chain like a horse's bit in her mouth. Luckily that was all that happened to her.
 
I hope not to stir the pot, it's just my opinion...

Dogs are not a pack animals, they are pets, and people are not pack leaders, they are humans, on the evolutionary scale we, humans are light years ahead, I just don't think reverting to pack mentally is really what we should do with an animal that's been domesticated for the last 5000+ years, loyal as the dog is, I give them credit that is due for that domestication over such an extensive period of time.

Dogs are bred for show, and other reasons, when really the most important thing to the pet owner is temperament.

Linda
 
112toGuru said:
I hope not to stir the pot, it's just my opinion...

Dogs are not a pack animals, they are pets, and people are not pack leaders, they are humans, on the evolutionary scale we, humans are light years ahead, I just don't think reverting to pack mentally is really what we should do with an animal that's been domesticated for the last 5000+ years, loyal as the dog is, I give them credit that is due for that domestication over such an extensive period of time.

Dogs are bred for show, and other reasons, when really the most important thing to the pet owner is temperament.

Linda
Click to expand...

What do you base your opinion on? You said you weren't an expert, so I'm curious as to how you came to your conclusions. Incidentally, dogs are domesticated and have been for a long time, but they were not "pets" for most of that time - they were working dogs. The human-dog interaction works so well because it works within the dog's pack mentality, when it's is done right, whether the dog is a pet or a working dog. The human takes the place of the pack leader and the dog follows. When the human doesn't do his job right as pack leader it messes up the dog's understanding of how the world is supposed to work. The dog hasn't been domesticated out of a pack mentality - if anything, human beings have been domesticated into a pack mentality!
 
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I use shock collars and invisible fencing on my dogs. They are training tools that I use that have allowed me to have large dogs that are well-behaved.

I'm sure glad they aren't against the law!:) I bet there is far more abuse going on with regards to dogs with simple chains/leashes/ropes than with shock collars.

112...I don't know how you can have dogs and say they aren't pack animals.:confused: :eek:
 
Dogs are definitely pack animals and their pack is their family. Every pack has a leader and hopefully it is you. Not all dogs are pets. Many are working dogs--herding, guarding, therapy dogs etc. I always think dogs are happiest when they have a job to do. I happen to like Cesar Milan but that is just my thoughts. We have 2 dogs that are well behaved off and on leash--both rescues.
 
I would think there is a lot of different opinions, and practices, I read a lot, from a lot of different sources, through all of it, the basic message I found that made the most sense to me is, the domesticated dog is not a pack animal, there is no reason for me to believe that dominance understanding or behavior crosses species in that way, in fact the reverse seems more true, the fact that humans are intellectually more advanced, allows us to domesticate the dog, horse, etc.

Fundamentally I agree many dogs were bred to be working dogs, when I go to the SPCA, I couldn't tell the difference, most looked like abandoned pets to me, the large majority anyway. If your pet has the opportunities to use his particular abilites that's great! I don't really think that correlates with the general "pack" type message for pet owners.

As I said, my opinion, based on my experience, interactions, & reading

Linda
Pack to me is not a term for a domesticated, tame animal.

Sorry janie1234 hope at least you understand that there are as many opinions on this subject as the day is long.
 
fitg said:
I have an opinion on this issue that will not be popular with most. I am a soft hearted person with three pure bred dogs (original breed Irish Setter and two Llwellen Setters).

My husband is a bird hunter. That is why we have this breed. That is what they have been bred to do. He does not believe in having an animal that is just a pet. He believes that they are all bred for a reason. They want to go hunting for birds. It is a diservice to the animal not to use them for their instincts. I believe that because I have been hunting birds with my husband and dogs. My husband would not shoot a bird when I am with him because he knows how sensitive I am. He just really loves being in the woods and watching them hunt. We live in the north woods and it is a fun thing that he likes to do. We love our dogs with a passion. I miss them when I am away.

We use shock collars. It works effectively.

Never used the choke collar, so not sure about that. My dogs are not the kind that you put on a leash and take for a walk. They are independent, but are spoiled and sleep in my bed every night.

I am a huge supporter of the shock collar because we used to have Beagles. My husband used to run Beagles. We had one that was AKC registered that we worked so hard with. It was many years ago, before they had shock collars. She was hunting and they have a tenacity that does not stop. My husband could not find her. She never came home. We found her on the side of the road. :(

I am pretty young (34) so I have not felt the profound sadness of losing a loved one that is human. Losing this dog put my husband and I in a situation that we could not handle at that time. The saddness was so profound. I had nightmares about it. It has been ten years now and we still have a picture of her on our fridge. She was so sweet. Her name was Katie.

I have blabbed a lot, but I think you need to take care of the situation asap! You are the boss. It is not acceptable to have your dog biting. You need to use the choke collar and see if it works.

Our situations are very different it seems. You need to take charge and be the boss.

Gloria
Click to expand...

Thanks Gloria. I'm hoping this choke collar work. So far it is working. I just have to keep consistent with it.
I completely understand your use of the shock collar. I think all dogs are different and need different tools to establish who is the boss. As smart as Georgie is and he is smart and loving. He can jump through a hoop, weave through my legs, catch a frisbee, . . .all sorts of stuff, . . he's got an atitude to match. I joke about how my daughter whose name is also Catie, . . . is going through the same "piss and vinegar" phase.
By the way if I could I would love to try hunting. It is a very challenging sport that seems to require a whole lotta patience. I can see why you would have setters. You can't have a better hunting companion than them. This is what they were bred for after all.
Thanks for the input.
 
Well, thanks everyone for the input.
Claire, . . I'll let you know. I'm desperate truly at this point. I'm sticking with the choke collar for now.

Linda, . .thing is Georgie is not a full bred dog. He is a rescue mutt that was returned to the Humane Society 2 times, removed from his litter way to soon, and was rail thin. He's possibly part shepherd, boxer, and pit bull and ALL muscle. He is strong so until I know he is fully trained I would never let him greet another child when he is barking and lunging. I also would unfortunately have to disagree with the Cesar Millan and Steve Irwin comment. I think Cesar Millan has really saved and given a ton of animals a second chance at life that would normally be put down for their agressive behavior and although Steve Irwin was not a show I watched, he loved what he did and died trying to educate the public about wild animals. I can't say that it is a bad thing.
 
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