Fats, Proteins and Carbs Revisited

Maribeth

Cathlete
The big difference in the three nutrients as far as body fat levels goes is in number of calories per gram--4 for carbs and protein, 9 for fat--and something known as the thermic effect of food.

The thermic effect of food is the increase in metabolic rate that occurs as a result of the work the body has to perform in order to digest and store or utilize what is eaten. Each of the three primary energy sources--fat, carbs and protein--all have a different thermic effect. Fat requires about 3% of its caloric value, carbohydrate require about 8% of its caloric value, and protein requires between 20-40% of its caloric value to be expended in the digestion and storage process.

What this means is that for every gram of fat you ingest (9 calories' worth), .27 calories are expended in the digestion and storage or utilization process. For every gram of carbohydrate you ingest, .32 calories are expended in the digestion and storage/utilization process. For every gram of protein you ingest, .8-1.6 calories are expended in the digestion and storage/utilization process.

Whoaaaa! Big difference in the caloric cost of digesting/utilization/storage of protein vs. the cost for fat and carbs! Enough that if you compare a 2000 calorie per day diet that is 60% protein vs a diet that is 10% protein, you'll see a significantly different result.

Let's say that on the 60% protein diet, the remaining 40% of total calories will be divided equally between fat and carbohydrates. 1200 of the 2000 calories come from protein, 400 will come from fat and 400 will come from carbohydrate. Considering protein's thermic effect, digestion and storage of those 1200 calories will burn between 240 and 480 calories. The thermic effect of carbohydrate will burn about 32 calories and that of fat will burn about 12 calories, resulting in the total calories burned as a result of the thermic effect of food equal to between 288 and 524 calories.

On the same number of calories, but with the percentages as the food pyramid suggests, only 10% of the total daily calories will be coming from protein (200 calories' worth), meaning that the calorie expenditure accounted for due to thermic effect is now only 40-80 calories. If carbs account for 60% of the total daily intake (1200 calories' worth), the caloric expenditure related to the thermic effect for carbs is 96, and the caloric expenditure for fat at 30% of total calories (600 calories' worth) is 18 calories, resulting in the total thermic effect of food equal to between 154-194 calories per day.

What does this mean in terms of consumption? That if the majority of your calories come from protein, you will be able to eat more--130-330 calories per day more on a 2000 calorie per day diet--due to the higher overall caloric expenditure related to the thermic effect of food. Or, it also means that if you eat what appears to be the same number of calories in a day on a 60% protein plan vs a 10% protein plan, you will actually net less calories on the higher protein plan because of the increased number of calories burned as a result of the thermic effect of protein.

At the end of a month, using the conservative numbers for the thermic effect of protein, the higher protein plan yields a net calorie intake that is 3900 calories lower than the higher carb plan. Given that when weight is lost, even under the best of circumstances, the weight will come from fat, stored muscle glycogen and water, that 3900 caloric difference could possibly account for a huge difference in weight lost (easily close to 5 pounds' worth) at the end of a month on the two different eating plans--just as a result of the thermic effect of protein--even though both plans have exactly the same daily caloric intake!

What this means is that the higher protein diet will result in a greater expenditure than will the higher carb diet, even though the intake levels are the same calorically. The difference is in the expenditure. Weight loss is a matter of calories out exceeding calories in. It ain't magic, it ain't that carbs are evil, it ain't that ketosis causes fat loss, it ain't that excess protein calories can't be converted to fat--IT IS A CALORIES OUT VS. CALORIES IN THING!!!!!

This isn't a plug for high protein eating--merely a scientific explanation of the thermodynamics of how the differences occur. There are negatives of high protein eating, too--next post!

It is all a matter of balance!
Maribeth
 
Wow :-wow Very Interesting Maribeth!! Thank you so much for taking the time to write that out for us. Finally an explaination that make sense. If you don't mind, I'd like to copy that and save it in my mail program for future reference.

Thanks again :D

:-jumpy :D Proud mommy to Zachary, Jillian and 6 month old Katie :D :-jumpy​
 
Okay, so I am not going to get into obsessing and counting all day, but roughly, if I eat 2000 calories a day, what percentage of protein/carbs/fat is safe and healthy? 60/20/20? How about 40/30/30 with the 40 being protein? Thanks for all the fabulous info you share. Also, if you up your protein intake, should you in turn up your weight work? My main focus has been on cardio lately.
 
RE: Fats, Proteins and Carbs Revisited--Wait!!

Wait, wait, wait--I'm NOT advocating high protein diets--just explaining the science behind why people who eat high protein can eat more calories and stay the same weight or can eat the same number of calories as a person on a lower protein diet and lose weight.

I was afraid that people would interpret my post as being in favor of high protein diets--it isn't. It is just an explanation of why they work the way that they do--I was trying to demystify the process.

Now, I do think that athletic populations need more in the way of protein, especially if they engage in high intensity strength training. A dietitian friend of mine recommends .6-.9 grams of protein per pound (not kilogram) of body weight. Authors from NSCA and Gatorade Sports Science Journals recommend up to a gram per pound of body weight.

My suggestion would be to calculate the grams of protein you need per day based on the activities in which you engage. If you are into very high intensity (interval training) cardio and/or heavy strength training, then use the .6-1.0 grams per pound recommendations to calculate protein intake. What I found was that by increasing my protein intake to these levels made protein about 25 percent of my diet--I keep fat at about 20 percent and carbs at 55 percent.

Yes, you can eat more with higher protein percentages, but performance decreases. You need carbs to be able to exercise intensely. I have found that for me, the 55/25/20 ratio works very well. I'm not hungry, I don't crave sweets excessively and I have plenty of energy for my workouts. On days that my carb intake falls below the 55 percent level, I get real problems with hypoglycemia due to my workouts.

PLEASE DON'T INTERPRET MY EXPLANATION OF THE SCIENCE BEHIND HIGH PROTEIN EATING AS A RECOMMENDATION FOR EATING A HIGH PROTEIN, LOW CARB DIET!!!! I make recommendations regarding protein intake based on training and body weight, eg, based on individual need, not based on percentages per se. The info on thermic effect of food specific to protein was to provide the scientific reason that people get results--for removing the cloak of mysticism from diets like Atkins--NOT as an endorsement of that type of eating plan by any means!

Maribeth
 
RE: Fats, Proteins and Carbs Revisited--Wait!!

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-02 AT 11:00PM (Est)[/font][p]Hi Maribeth,

A few of questions ...

1.) From what I understand, the body uses carbs first as it's primary fuel source, then fats, and then proteins. I do understand that it takes more energy to turn proteins into fuel and from a caloric expenditure standpoint, that would appear like it would meet weight loss goals on the surface. But, there is a cost in forcing the body to use protein as its fuel source. Could you please go into the physical costs besides the decrease in athletic performance?

2.) Now, I’m not trying to be derogatory here, believe me, I’m not, but I think it would be a great topic to delve into in more detail. What is the definition of an athlete? The reason why I ask is that some active people consider themselves to be athletes. That’s because the definition of an athlete isn’t very clear. Some athletes consider themselves active until someone points it out to them that they actually are an athlete. From what I understand, an athlete is someone who physically trains for an event, competition, or degree. Some of those training regiments are pretty aggressive to accomplish, they are demanding and can expend an incredible amount of calories. Not to mention the increase risk of injury. The only reason why I’d like some more clarification is that the American diet is already protein rich and I’d like to make sure that people understand what is an active healthy person. Knowledge is power … ;-)

3.) Since the caloric expenditure to ingest carbs and fat is so low, is that from the body’s efficiency such that it can distribute the glucose to the body effectively for fuel and not waste it during digestion?

Thanks so much for all the information.

Keta. :D

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RE: Fats, Proteins and Carbs Revisited--Wait!!

I agree and would like to know the same thing. How about us gals that do 4 cardio sessions per week (1 being interval) and 2 weight sessions?
 
Maribeth, another question?

When you are finished with the protein, carb, fat discussion I would like you to touch on hypothyroidism, if you have time. I have it and have a hard time losing weight. Is it fact that hypothyroidism makes it harder to lose weight or is that in my head? Is there anything that can be done to counteract the problem other than than your basic clean-eating diet. I eat very healthy (whole foods, whole grain wheat products, etc) and I exercise 4-6 days a week and I am 33. I know there are a lot of factors that affect weight-loss and I realize that to lose you have to use more calories than you take in. I do all the right things (at least I think I do) and the weight just doesn't seem to want to come off. I am not looking for a quick fix or magic but would be interested in what you have to say about hypothyroidism and weight loss! Thanks!!!

Kelly http://www.sgtfuzzbubble99.homestead.com/files/Smilies/De_Niro/eeyore.gif
 
Hello Maribeth,
I have read your posts with much interest. I thank you for your time and sharing your knowledge. You have helped me get a great deal. You have put things into proper perspective.
sincerely,
joy
 
RE: Fats, Proteins and Carbs Revisited--Wait!!

Thanks for the clarification Maribeth. I always welcome a post from you.
 
That article was very interesting Keta. Although, I found even myself wavering towards the end, trying to get through it.

Made me REALLY thankful that I am not caught up in what I eat. I don't count calories. I don't even know how much fat I eat a day. And I have NO CLUE as to the breakdown of carbs/fat/protein. I know enough about food and what is in it that i can eyeball something and know instantly if it is good for me to eat. I know the right portions of almost all foods and I am all too aware when I am eating FAR over those portions. I really have to say that this knowledge has proved invaluable to me, as I am sure you would agree Keta...

I will admit though when I start talking with a somewhat semi-educated high protein/low carb proponent such as Dana on the FF, I start questioning my own beliefs. I thought about this in Maribeth's other post where she says she is going head to head with them. Just tell me where and when, cuz i would love to hear THAT!!!! They throw those numbers out, and science just doesn't lie, so then you don't know what to say!!:):)

This is all really nice information and I too am thankful that Maribeth posts these topics. And you are right Keta, knowlege IS power!!!!
 
I know where you’re coming from. I wish that LynMarie would also grace this forum. She was working on her Ph.D. in nutrition and we used to get in some really great discussions about nutrition. But, it was all behind the scenes because we just didn’t want to deal with the behavior. I just think that all of us could really have some very educated truthful discussions on nutrition and what it really is.

I won’t even go to FF or FitPrime anymore because I’m just tired of it, I’m tired of the mind numbing bickering and personal attacks. I will never forget when LynMarie on FitPrime tried to have an educated discussion about Atkins and they just came out with extremely childish behavior. It’s all about responsible behavior and if you try to advertise yourself as being educated in this arena, you have to be accountable to have a balanced view and cut through all of the questionable information, it’s to try to educate.

That’s why I ask Maribeth the questions that I do. It really is about simple mechanics. The body is a very simple yet complicated organism, no more no less. There is no magic, but that’s what people want. They want a magic bullet or pill or diet. I was considering writing a piece on moderation and diet, what does that really mean. What’s the key pit falls of the word diet. How important emotions play in our ability to be successful at weight reduction … but I got caught up in American Idol. I love that show.

Knowledge is power … you have to listen to the physical queues of the body and cut through the emotional queues that we send ourselves. We need to really understand what sugar and salt really do to the body and how it responds, plus why.

I’ll tell you something, today I decided to do an experiment. I do that every once in awhile. What I did was I ate a healthy lunch that was high in fiber, high in veggies and high in whole grains. That naturally made it low in calories and fat. So, I wanted to find out how long it took my body to run out of fuel before I started to suffer from side effects.

I was tempted with a frozen Snickers ice cream bar and I ate it. I was getting hungry but not quite all the way hungry. I waited to see what happened … one hour after I ate it I got hunger pains. I know what it was from … it was false hunger. How did I know that … because at lunch I had 600 calories and that lasted me 4 hours+. I have a 180 calorie ice cream bar and after 1 hour, I’m experiencing hunger pains, how can that be? Well, it’s simple … it’s sugar … it’s junk … it’s nutritionally poor … and it’s a very poor food choice, period. I ate dinner; again choosing high fiber, high veggie, high grain … and it’s lasted 5 hours+ now valued at 558 calories. Why is that? Because I’m not as active at night. Especially now since I’ve sprained my stupid knee and I’m out of Martial Arts for a week or two! That just bummed me OUT!

It’s really simple, the body is designed for carbs and carbs doesn’t equal sugars. It equals whole grains (whole-wheat pasta is a grain), fruits, veggies, beans, lentils, nuts and seeds. Our physiology supports that eating. It wasn’t designed to have a bunch of processed foods, sugar, salt, meats, dairy, and fats. I’m not saying that those things are bad … well, maybe the processed foods, sugar and salt, but everything has its place and it’s moderation. That’s the only way each body can have a nutritional plan that is best suited for its owner. Any diet that says you have to combine this and that or there is a list of no no foods, is not a wise choice to weight reduction, a healthy lifestyle, and long term success.

96% of people who try diets fail. And for those that do get down to their goal weight, 95% of them will gain the weight back within two years. Why?

Maybe others can answer that question.

Keta. :D

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I think people "diet" by eating differently for a specific period of time (until they lose that "magic number" of pounds). Then they just start eating the way they used to, which maintained them at the original weight. I would think (and our resident professionals in this area can confirm or deny, this has just been my personal experience!!) that the only way to maintain is to change the way you eat for life. I've found that the "healthier" I eat the less I crave the empty calorie foods. Moderation is the key however, NOT complete deprivation, since IMO any "diet" that doesn't include chocolate is doomed to failure anyway!

Leslie
 
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-29-02 AT 03:06PM (Est)[/font][p]Keta--great question about what consitutes an athlete--wish I had an absolutely definitive answer. From everything I have compiled in my research, "athletes" considered to need more protein than the current RDA are people who regularly perform high power output activities--strength training, sprinting, very intense cardio interval training--which usually result in some degree of microtrauma to the muscle. Additionally, endurance athletes--by definition, engaging in continuous, steady state activity for 90 minutes or more--may need extra protein to repair the wear and tear caused by their sport.

So, if a person is performing interval training, strength training and/or extended periods of steady state cardio training on a regular basis (several times per week), they fall into the category of an athlete, even though they may not play competitive sports.

Good question on fuel utilization, too. What is important to remember is that under normal circumstances (healthy person eating a balanced diet), the body ALWAYS uses a combination of fuels. It doesn't have to exhaust its supply of glucose/glycogen before it will begin to burn fat. This is yet another myth the fad diets try to promote. As long as glucose is present, there will always be some fat and some carbohydrate being utilized to fuel bodily functions and activity. At rest, the primary fuel used is fat. As intensity goes up, the percentage of fat used goes down, but there is always some fat contributing to the mix.

Protein typically isn't used as a fuel, but if blood glucose/glycogen levels fall below a certain point, the body will begin to make glucose from other sources (gluconeogenesis). Since fat can contribute very little to this process, amino acids have to be used. They will either have to come from dietary sources or from body tissues. Since lean muscle isn't considered to be a vital organ, it is the source of choice.

High protein dieters DO use protein for fuel. If there isn't enough carbs in the diet to replenish glyogen stores and meet daily energy requirements, SOMETHING has to provide the glucose the body demands. Unlike what high protein advocates would have us believe, fat won't do the trick, because only a small amount of it can be used (some sources say fat doesn't contribute significantly at all) for gluconeogenesis. The problem is that the body can't make glucose fast enough for physical exercise that lasts for very long or that is fairly intense, so low carb eaters poop out when activity levels demand glucose at a faster and/or greater rate than the body can make it.

It's up in the air right now as to what the long term consequences of utilizing protein for gluconeogenesis are. Some say the extra work on the kidneys leads to trouble down the road. Others say that if the kidneys are healthy, there's no problem. There is the argument that the nitrogen that has to be excreted also leaches calcium from the body. And, there are those who say that the low levels of glycogen and loss of associated water lead to dehydration.

One other problem with certain high protein diets is that they are also very high in fat, a fact which contributed to the rash of gall bladder problems that occurred when Dr. Atkins first published his book back in the '70s.

Leslie, you are a genius and absolutely right in your statement about moderation!!! I would never live on a "diet" that wouldn't allow me cookies or other sweet treats. I eat them on a daily basis, just not in unlimited quantities. Do simple sugars cause fluctuations in blood sugar? If eaten alone, yes. Can the fluctuations lead to hunger? Yep. But it is still a matter of calories in vs calories out that determines if you'll gain weight.

Hope this is helpful! I'm working on more, but for now, this book of a post is long enough!
Maribeth
 

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