Educated crowd/ Endurance vs strength

C

CathydsRNA

Cathlete
Hello all,
I know the benefits associated with endurance strength training in terms of increasing lactate threshold and the benefits associated with that. My question is specific to muscle development and muscle fiber recruitment. Are there specific muscle growth gains associated with endurance type workouts (where you are using lower weights but a high number or reps) that you can't get from other strength workouts such as those where you are using heavier weights and lower reps. I know that you feel the burn more with endurance but that burn while important for improving lactate threshold is irelevant to what is going on in terms of muscle growth. So... is there any other benefit to endurance workouts? Will they build up muscle fibers that slower and heavier workouts won't? Thanks.And if you folks have any references or reading material on the topic I would appreciate that too.:)
 
I'm interested in this, too. I feel I need to work on endurance, but I could commit to it more if I knew exactly why.

Shari
 
I certainly am no expert....but it could have something to do with the 'slow twitch' and 'fast twitch' muscle fibers.

I am under the impression that the slow twitch fibers are recruited more for power and the slow twitch are recruited more for repetitive moves. Slow twitch fibers tend to create a long lean look whereas, fast twitch create a bulkier look. So, by doing endurance type workouts you increase the number of slow twitch fibers in the muscle. I 'm pretty sure that genetically each persons make-up will favor one or the other but they both can be improved through training.

If you are really interested go to a college library and get the latest Exercise Science textbook and it will explain it all.:)
Hey and keep us informed about what you discover;-)
 
I think one of the benefits is shaping/sculpting the muscle more. I know in one of the workouts Cathe mentions that you can concentrate on form better. (But, then she says something like, "Well, we should ALWAYS concentrate on form!") Or, something to that effect. There is also a workout where she goes down to three pounders and says take advantage of this weight to sculpt & define. I may not have the wording exactly but just assuring you that endurance DOES have benefits. JMO!

Your-Friend-In-Fitness, DebbieH http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/wavey.gif[/img] If You Get The Choice To Sit It Out Or Dance...I Hope You DANCE!!!
 
Hi, the information that I have found is that strength training, both heavy weight with low reps and higher reps with lower weight will train primarily slow twitch fibers. The higher reps with lower weights can increase your lactate threshold but I can't find anything about muscle gians that are specific to endrance weight training. According to the articles I have read, the best way to develop fast twitch fibers is through plyometric training and inerval sprinting, not endurance strength training. I still can't find any muscle development reasons to support endurance strength training. Other reasons such as functional fitness etc but it seems better to focus on heavy and slow for muscle gain. I know it feels like you are doing something with endurance training because of the lactic acid buildup but I don't think it gets you anywhere in terms of building muscle, at least with respect to Slow and Heavy training. Any more info would be greatly appreciated.
 
Cathy,

You should post this question in the "Ask Cathe" forum. I would like to know her answer. Good luck.

Jen
 
Hi Jen,
I did just that. Hopefully she'll answer because I am thinking of not including this type of workout with alot of frequency into my rotations. Not that I have been anyway. I have been primarily focusing on Slow and Heavy and Pyramid for my strength training and whatever benefits you get in terms of strength from my circuit workouts. Thanks.:)
 
As far as lower body is concerned, endurance workouts will help you more with plyometric moves and powering up your cardio workouts. For example all the Imaxes and Circuit Max will be easier for doing Leaner Legs twice per week, rather than the Slow & Heavy for legs.

As for the upper body, who knows?!!!

Clare
 
I believe that the Pyramid workouts, performed exactly as produced, are endurance workouts. Little to no recovery time, lots of reps. Yet many people report strength gains from them. I wonder whether this isn't another YMMV situation. Physiologically, I don't have the expertise to address your question, but if you look at results, I bet that less-experienced lifters will derive some size benefit from endurance work at least to a point, whereas more experienced people will need to play with a mix of slow and heavy, explosive or power-lifting, and endurance to achieve desired growth results.

Your point in your previous post about the functional aspect of endurance, and tying in to Clare's comment about lower body stamina for cardio, is ample justification for my personal program to include endurance work.

Like you, I would love to see a scientific explanation of why slow lifting promotes size moreso than endurance. Overall it seems to be a rule of thumb that your body will improve at what it's being asked to do a lot of. Each individual's body will develop in its way to meet those demands. It seems just from reading what folks have reported over the years that size may be more of a genetic tendency. Three of the strongest women around here (Cathe, A-Jock, and Maximus) are petite! Fascinating subject. Hope Cathe answers on the other forum.

--Ann
 
This is a great question. I have a hard time building muscle but seem to get the best strength/definition gains from incorporating both types of lifting into my rotations. I always thought that no matter how you worked a muscle to failure, it would result in muscle growth. Apparently it's a little more complicated than that. I'd love to hear more input on this question, too. Thanks for asking it!:)
 
I really want to know the answer to this too! Is there any concrete benefit in terms of muscle development to doing this kind of training???? I know there would be a benefit if you did this and no heavier weight training but what is the benefit, besides functional fitness and helping with other workouts of mixing the two? If heavier weights and lowere reps builds muscle better, this is what I am going to stick with for this purpose. I may throw some endurance in for other reasons but less frequently.
 
Cathy,
I for me adding in the endurance weight training helps with muscle growth. I lean towards heavier slower weight training, but don't get as good of definition doing only low rep heavier training. I think it is because you are tapping into two different types of muscle fiber. Many of Cathe's Endurance workouts provide endurance and some strength gains. I find doing something like SS blasts as heavy as I can makes it possible to go heavier when I go back to SH & PS. This has helped me over some sticking points.
Diane Sue
 
Hi,
Thanks for sharing your tips, advice and personal experiences. I have been getting great results over the past almost two years now of doing Cathe and focusing on cardio and heavy weight training mostly, and not much muscle endurance. My muscles are now cut and apparent and people have commented and have even asked to borrow some of my workouts. Therefore I have been afraid to add endurance in since it would have to replace my time with heavy weights and I am afraid of both losing muscle that I have already built or decreasing the rate of muscle development. I guess I can slowly add it in and see what happens. I shall post again(in a couple of months) and let you know what happens. Thanks again.:)
 
You can do a month to six weeks of endurance training and just add in a heavy workout here and there for reassurance that you are not losing your fitness level. I do that a lot. Maybe for me a heavy lower with my newly raised weight loads and upper with raised weight loads. Same goes with throwing a Bowflex workout in. I assure you you will not lose your strenght gains.
Diane Sue
 
Hi Cathy,

Interesting queston.
My question is specific to muscle developement & muscle fiber recruitement.

Are there specific muscle growth gains associated with endurance type workouts. (lower weights higher reps). That you can't get form other strength workouts such as those where you are using heavier weight & lower reps? Here's my take:

Yes, endurance workouts recruit slow twitch muscle fibers. Lower weights (some believe heavier weights will fatigue muscles better in a strength training program) higher reps are needed to bring these muscle fibers to failure. Heavier weights using lower reps will not work slow twitch muscle fibers to failure.

Is there any benefit to endurance workouts? Here's my take:

Yes, working your muscles prevents atrophy. Your body normally has muscle tone. Keeping your muscles fit will allow your body to function at it's best. This would mean training all types of muscle fibers. Going a step further, an example, sprinters train to be fast, strong, and powerful (fast twitch) while, long distance runners train for endurance (slow twitch). You need strong muscles for peak performance. On another note, lets say an individual builds muscle mass easily & dosen't want mass (predominance of fast twitch fibers), they may want to focus more (but not to exclusion) on endurance workouts. This will maintain their muscles without building a lot of mass. If you have predominent slow twitch/a hard gainer you can train slow and heavy but will only accomplish so much muscle mass in relation to your genetic make up. Endurance training will work the rest of your muscles. Your best results will come by focusing on what works for your body type and what you want to accomplish.

Will they build up muscle fibers that slow and heavy workouts won't? Here's my take:

Yes, as touched on above. Also, if someone is new to strength training they will get strength benefits from endurance workouts. But, I think your question has more to do with aestetics. The effect of working with heavy weights and low reps on fast twitch fibers will create muscle mass (the look as some see it). However, bigger muscles don't always mean stronger. Also, if you are a person that is not genetically gifted with these predominent fibers, than this type of exercise may not suite your needs.

More of my take:
Everybody has both types (yes there are 3 types but I won't go there) of fibers and they need to be worked for maximum performance and results. Getting the best results for your body type means figuring out what works for you. Many people have done this by trial and error. Its fun to try workouts without worrying about the heavy stuff. This can also get frustrating when your body dosen't respond and you don't know why. I still say you need both types of exercise but may need to determine the amount of each. To go a step further, you may need to adjust according to the muscle groups you are working. That is the beauty of having several different home workouts on the market, cause everybody is different. Keep in mind that extreme details have been summed up to decrease the length of my post. I hope that I haven't lost too much in the process.

Hope I have added something to the discussion,
jordan
 
Thanks Jordan! Someone just dug up a two year old thread that relates to the same question that I posted in the Ask Cathe forum. I think you might be interested in that answer too. Thanks for the detailed answer.:7
 
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