Why does an endurance rotation 'lean you out'?

JamminX3

Cathlete
I've been acting like I understand this, but I don't. I know the difference b/w a strength rotation and an endurance rotation, but I can't figure out how endurance tapes make you lean or give you definition. I see that posted all the time.

First, you have to have be at goal weight, right? You've built up some muscles first. So how does building endurance in your muscles make them show up more? And make them show up more than a strength rotation?

Anyone know the pathophysiology behind this? TIA.

Robin http://www.smilies-world.de/Smilies/Smilies_klein_1/flower.gif
 
Hi Robin. It doesn't lean me out--I think it all depends on the person. I suppose if you have built muscle up and are beginning to gain mass, switching to an endurance rotation that doesn't build anymore mass could make it seem as though you are becoming leaner...???
Wendy
 
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-02 AT 09:55AM (Est)[/font][p]Hi Robin! I wonder the same thing. I read somewhere that using light wts. with more reps give you that "cut" look, which would be an endurance workout. I don't understand the physiology behind this, but it's good to know how you can benfit from different workouts.
 
Oh my gosh! Is this true that you already need to be at goal weight to do endurance workouts? I still need to lose 15 lbs and just recently started working on endurance for a change. Help somebody! I don't want to waste my time doing the wrong kind of workouts. Can anybody answer this? I will ask Cathe in a few days if not but would rather not take up her time since she just had a baby.
Thanks,
Lisa
 
Like Robin I too have not truly 'grasped' why an endurance rotation can make you look more 'cut'. On the other hand I feel that shocking your muscles occasionally is essential for both weight loss and weight maintainance. When I do strength rotations (which is most of the time) I tend to gain muscle mass but I rarely bulk coz I don't really build muscle easily. But when I do switch to an endurance rotation (I don't do them often or for very long) my body really feels the difference and I tend to lose weight and this contributes to a leaner look. So I would definitely not rule out endurance rotations while trying to lose weight. Just my opinion though.
 
RE: A few Aquajockotic musings

Hi, Robin! Please do not think that you have to be at a "goal weight" to do anything you want to do in terms of muscle conditioning!

There is a lot of misunderstanding, and misinformation, about the distinction between muscle strength and muscle endurance. The distinction is far more one of performance capacity, and types of muscle fibers recruited, than it is muscle appearance or the bulk of the muscle. Muscle strength is defined as the absolute AMOUNT of weight you can lift in one repetition, where as muscle endurance is defined as the NUMBER OF REPETITIONS you can complete with a submaximal weightload.

The muscles are composed of two kinds of muscle fibers: fast-twitch fibers, which are recruited when lifting extremely heavy loads and which fire quickly (and burn out quickly!); and slow-twitch fibers, which are recruited when lifting submaximal weightloads in more repetitions over a longer period of time. (Further, fast twitch fibers are subdivided into Fast Twitch I and Fast Twitch II fibers; those distinctions elude me for the nonce.) Slow twitch fibers are generally recruited first in any lift, and then fast twitch fibers after if needed.

It should be noted that most power-lifters, who lift very heavy weightloads are NOT overly "bulky"; they are strong but their substantial muscle mass is extremely dense. Body builders, on the other hand, go for the muscle "pump" by completing enough reps to infuse the muscles with blood and puff them up. Muscle strength and muscle hypertrophy are not synonymous.

Further, what one sees as muscle "cut" is usually far more a function of the subcutaneous fat stores - or, more accurately, the LACK of muscle fat stores - overlying the muscles that it is the result of light-weight-high-rep work.

So what does this mean for you? IMHO, strength rotations do more both for your strength AND your endurance than do endurance rotations; in fact, there have been studies that document that strength training assists in endurance training (both muscle conditioning and cardiovascular aerobic conditioning), BUT endurance training does NOT assist in strength training. Further, a good strength rotation coupled with increased intensity in your cardiovascular training (and stronger muscles will enable you to increase your cardio performance) will, again IMHO, will assist in burning UNNECESSARY fat stores more effectively by burning more energy during the workout session, elevating the metabolism in the hours after the workout (which strength training does longer than cardio work) AND by building more metabolically active lean tissue.

WHEW! I didn't know I had it in me! Lunch hour's over!

Hope this helps -

Annette
:):):):):)
 
RE: A few Aquajockotic musings

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-02 AT 02:13PM (Est)[/font][p]Thanks Annette! That's alot of good info. I'm going to print this this page out and keep it in my fitness file. I hope you were able to eat your lunch.:)
 
RE: A few Aquajockotic musings

I thought an endurance workout with light weights was a fat burning workout as well. Is this not true??????????????
 
RE: A few Aquajockotic musings

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-27-02 AT 07:24PM (Est)[/font][p]LOL. Now Lisa, don't panic. I wasn't saying it *was* true, just asking. I just don't see how you can gain definition with fat on top of your muscles.

Thanks to all who've responded. I appreciate your expertise Aquajock. You know I *know* all that stuff, but there seems to be some other ideas about this and I'm just getting so confused. I've read on other forums that doing an endurance rotation pushes the fat that's inside the muscle to the outside, so that when the fat layer is gone, the muscle is actually more lean. I just don't get the science behind this. Wondering if it's documented somewhere or is this bodybuilding folklore. Also, on the same forum, the statement is made that high reps with light wts. is actually catabolic therefore a no-no for ectomorphs (which I am). That would be another rationale for the 'de-bulking/leaning out' theory.

I've been on this heavy wt./little cardio kick trying to build some muscle and lose wt. cuz I've read that too much cardio keeps you from building muscle. I'm also reading about great results from lighter wt. and TONS of cardio and it's all making me NUTS!!!!!!!! ARGH and ARGH again.

prfitness, see??? Your post makes me want to drop the heavy wts. go with something fast and furious. Next week, it's either the PS series or Gilad's Quick Fit with Leaner Legs. Oh, what to do, what to do?????

Have a great evening, everyone.

Robin http://www.smilies-world.de/Smilies/Smilies_klein_1/flower.gif
 
RE: A few Aquajockotic musings

Robin,
Sorry about my panic attack/freaking out episode yesterday. I read so much about fitness/strength training these days and seems like everything contradicts what you just learned last week. It's quite confusing. I don't know who or what to trust anymore for accurate information. I would probably be better off to stop reading so much on the topic. Same thing with nutrition, everything I've read seems to contradict another nutritionist or doctor. Oh well, I guess we have to make the best decisions we can. Thank God for Cathe and Aquajock, huh?
Lisa
 
RE: A few more musings . . .

One of the reasons there is so much confusion about fitness protocols in general and strength conditioning in particular is that the fitness field, being still in its early adolescence IMHO, is overrun by people who don't have good, solid academic credentials in exercise science. Instead, they have a lot of mickey-mouse certifications from Bodyology-Dot-Com or the like, and because they are fiercely competing for market share in a market that is comparatively quite small, they either try to reinvent the wheel or promulgate misinformation that sounds exotic, new and different from the same old mundane truths about human physiology.

My suggestion is to not get too bogged down in the details of your program, trying to calculate every fat cell burned and every muscle cell developed and every muscle striation controlled. Stay consistent and increasingly progressive with your cardio work on a weekly basis, and stay consistent and increasingly progressive in terms of weight loads with your weight lifting.

If you're not doing Interval Max, do it! And leg circuit workouts are awesome - I like to do Circuit Max with strictly barbells (no upper body movement - too klutzy and weight loads too light to keep the legs fired) and I like to hemstitch together the I-Max warm-up with the Body Max step circuit and the Power Circuit circuit segments. Legs-o-rama!

Hope this helps!

Annette
 
I have an answer...

Check out BodyRX!!!! This is exactly what his entire book is about!!!!

It is a 6 month program that basically goes like this...

6 weeks to build muscle
6 weeks to sculpt
6 weeks to burn fat
6 weeks to maintain=
6 months to a great body.

The main premise of the plan is his diet program which seems fantastic. You change your eating and workouts every six weeks to achieve a specific result.

you can check it out at www.bodyrx.com
 
RE: A few more musings . . .

Thanks a tonne for that Annette - I read all that stuff out there and get totally confused - some say eat after a workout to replenish glycogen stores, others say do not eat to maximise fat burn - Gosh, who knows? I've just started relying on my own body a lot more for answers - it takes longer to learn that way but atleast I know that it is reliable. I was just going to post to ask whether any one modifies Circuit Max to work the legs more and you've given me the answer. Love your posts!

PS Sorry Robin - didn't mean to confuse you more. By the way I just wanted to ask what results you were getting with the heavy weights minimum cardio thing. I also wanted to ask what you meant by minimum cardio. I am trying to decide how much cardio for the S&H rotation that I am about to start.
 
RE: A few more musings . . .

Annette - just wanted to say that I think you have a wonderful way of explaining things and I admire the depth of your knowledge about health and fitness. So...thanks for all the extremely informative things you've written here on these boards. I get a lot out of them!

http://www.plaudersmilies.de/happy/xyxthumbs.gif[/img]
 
RE: A few more musings . . .

I agree!!!!

Annette: If you get a chance, check out the BodyRx program. It is pretty much based on everything that you say here. He firmly believes in what you and I talked about over at Cathe's forum regarding women lifting HEAVY. I am still lifting heavy and will report to you what happens in about 6 weeks. Thanks for all your GREAT advise. You are truly wonderful!!!!
 
RE: Athletics vs. aesthetics

You all are too nice! Thank you very much for your kind words!

Over time, I've learned a few things that serve me well:

Over time, through no conscious effort on my part, I've lost interest in achieving a specific physical look but instead have become interested in maximizing my physical strength and cardiovascular-exertion capabilities, just increasing intensity up and up and up. And you know what? As I've gotten more fit inside, there have been distinct changes outside. That's the paradox!

If my suggestions hold any weight, I'd suggest investing in the ACE Personal Trainer Manual (www.acefitness.org) and use that as your primer for fundamental fitness information. The chapters deal with exercise physiology, anatomy, biomechanics and applied kinesiology, nutrition, all that good stuff. The more you know about the true science of human physiology, the better off you are to spot commerce-driven misinformation when it's thrown at you. Granted, the prose is pretty turgid, but I consider it an Owner's Manual for the most precious thing I'll ever have: my body.

Thanks again for your kind words!

Annette
 
I agree with all of you that there is just so much information it is hard to know what to listen to. So I thought I'd add to it and mention what works for me! :)

In the past 10 months I lost 15 pounds of fat and have been at my goal weight for 4 of those months, with very minimal fluctuations and not much thought, to be honest. How did I do it? Mix it up!! I have never done a rotation and I never plan to. I just do what I feel like doing, and what I have not done in a while. I try not to do the same video more than once every 10 days or so (yes I have lots of them!), and I supplement this with running 2-3 days a week.
If I feel like doing strength, I do PH OR MIS. If I feel like intervals, I do IM or Intense Moves. If I feel like an Amazon Woman, I'll do BodyMax (haha!) etc. I do keep track of what I do, just for my own curiosity's sake.
Mixing videos "randomly" (and being progressive with them, like Aquajock said), for me, has been a perfect way to gain some muscle mass and definition, lose fat, get and stay lean, and reach my goals!
Lisa
 
Annette,
Thank you for your generosity with information! I am going to the ACE site right after I post this.

Lisa, I do what you do! There is a famous weightlifting writer who addressed this very topic (too bad I don't remember his name) but to quote him, he said, "Just lift the weights!"

To the original confused ectomorph ;-), don't neglect Power hour because it's supposed to be an endurance workout, just halve some of the reps and go a little heavier (once you're familiar with the pace and everything). Because Power hour is full of great posture-improving exercises that enhance the quality of life.

But neglecting it for 3 months because you're doing other enjoyable workouts, that's okay! Once you become a lifelong exerciser your time does not seem so precious. Enjoy your workouts and "go the long way" sometimes! Hope this helps.
-Connie
 
RE: A few more musings . . .

Hi Annette!!

One more in agreement!! I love your posts and am glad you are here to give the "real" story. I am the same as you. Have been exercising and into health and fitness for 10 years. Worked at Ballys for seven (not as a personal trainer, although I wish) and definetly learned while working there that you had to have some way to differentiate between FACT and FICTION. I purchased both the personal trainer manual and the aerobic instructor manual many years ago and have read them cover to cover. I still refer back to them constantly. I took some nutrition classes in college and made sure to keep every one of my nutrition textbooks...read them also cover to cover. And lets not even mention all the Covert Bailey books and all that. Learning about fitness is my hobby and it really has taken me far.

I truly believe, as you do, that women..and everyone for that matter...would be much better off if they purchased the ACE manual and say, a college total nutrition textbook that TAUGHT you about how to exercise, how to eat and WHY. Not just some idea Joe Blow has about what you should do. Wouldn't you rather believe the experts and seek to understand what goes on physiologically in the body when you lift heavy weights or eat a candybar?? I don't understand why more people don't do this!!


Anyway, my original point was to thank you for the very interesting post. The muscular endurance thing and the strength training thing always annoys me. I baught into it for a while myself...I was hiking mountains every day and then I would go and do Standing Legs with no weight (cuz I couldn't handle it with all the hiking) and finally, I had to wonder...what are 80 million cazillion no weight lunges doing for me????? Zip...Zilch....NADA. SOOOOO... I heavyed up and altered my tempo on standing legs and guess what?? Now I can do weight all through SL and hiking mountains has become much easier...and I have LOST FAT, without really trying!! Thanks again....Janice
 
Annette..
To give you an example of how uneducated people think..in the regards to overall health and fitness...


When I initially first started having my upper back troubles, I was frantically searching for an answer. Docs couldn't give me one. I knew I lacked optimum flexibility and decided that really could only be it, since I do cardio 5+ times per week and lift weights 3 times. So I started incorporating more stretching but left my other routine alone, as it only helped. I was in more pain when sedentary, and felt good when active.

Well, I am very " musclebound" for lack of a better word, and all the people at work thought that I should not lift weights anymore cuz it was making me too big. My own mother told me that I should COMPLETELY STOP working out for 6 mos or so and see if my back felt better. She said surely all that hiking was not doing me any good, and why am i so busy lifting heavy??? I already have muscle, why do I want more?? She said....maybe I needed to concentrate on losing some MUCSLE!!! Can you believe that!! Then of course, I talk some sense into her, telling her you NEVER want to lose muscle..you want to stretch it..and that no doc would tell me to do that. She got angry and felt that I was not listening to her. I am just going off what I know, and who knows more?????

It happens all the time at work, where co workers will make comments about my body and what they "think" I should be eating or doing. Or even comments about what they should be doing. I just sit and chuckle because they have no basis in which to come to these conclusions. I have tried to get several of them to lift weights with me on our lunch hour, but they are PETRIFIED and find an excuse every time. It is just so funny....Janice
 

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