Cathe's tapes and reps..

naughtoj

naughtoj

Cathlete
Hi everyone!!


I got to thinking today..trying to create a new rotation...that maybe I am doing too much for my goals. Starting to wonder what is really the point of doing 50 lunges with 12 lb dumbells instead of 30 with 20's.

Not to knock Cathe or anything, but I am starting to doubt the effectiveness of endurance workouts. This is what I got off the internet(can't remember where)..

Program Principles at a Glance

Strength
* Resistance: Heavy
* Repetitions: 3 to 8
* Sets: 3 to 5
* Rest: 2 to 5 minutes

Size
* Resistance: Moderate
* Repetitions: 8 to 12
* Sets: 3 to 5
* Rest: 30 to 90 seconds

Tone (endurance)
* Resistance: Light
* Repetitions: 12 to 20
* Sets: 2 to 3
* Rest: 20 to 30 seconds

Ok, I get that S&H would be strength. But what tapes does Cathe have for SIZE. As of late, I am just feeling like I am not super challenging my muscles with some of her tapes just because there are so many reps involved and automatically I cannot stick to the poundage I would use for 8-12 reps. Anyone else feel this way???

For instance, if you can bench 100 pounds max, then you should be lifting 75lbs. 8-12 times for maximum gains in muscle SIZE. However, I know Cathe never uses anything more than a 35 lb. barbell for chest presses. I know I never use more than my 20lb dumbells, but if I were to do it on my bench press, I could handle atleast 65 lbs. 12 times..

I am just thinking that for what my goals are I am doing FAR too many reps. But what Cathe tapes are geared towards maximizing muscle hypertrophy?? The only one I can think of that falls under the rep guide above is MIS. Maybe??

I am not getting sore when I workout anymore. I used 20 lb. dumbells with the 1.25 platemates for a total of 46 pounds on squats the other day for PH. Had to drop that weight to 40lbs eventually, so I still got the fatigue, but not the soreness. However, for S&H I was easily squatting 65lbs. (Didn't really get sore for that one either though). So what gives??

If you do cardio..especially plyometric moves like Interval Max, can I ask what the value of lower body endurance weight work is?? I can understand the value of upper body (holding grocery bags, etc), but since I do IMAX, mountain hiking and other Cathe cardios, do I really need lower body endurance training or should I just be squatting 75lbs. 10 times for 3 sets and calling it quits??

Maybe you Body Rx'ers can help. Or Maribeth?? Am I wasting my time on Leaner Legs?? Really, working S&H legs in once a week with a few sets from Standing Legs seems like it makes more sense.

I know many of you are going to say you don't HAVE TO BE sore to have had a good workout, but I really think when you are pushing your muscles to where they have not been before, you should be sore. I don't know about you all, but my legs ALWAYS burn when I do Cathe lower body work so I don't think I can without a doubt say I am pushing myself harder each time....it always feels like I am going to die!!!:):)

Very confused with all this. Any input would be appreciated, especially in guidance to which videos of Cathe's fall in the 8-12 rep/3 set range....

Thanks!!!!


Janice
 
Janice-
Thoughts like these have crossed my mind too, especially when I read fitness material written by men. Not that women are so different but I just don't know.

I am curious to hear others' responses, too.

I do know that lifting 75 pounds overhead, for squats or lunges, is impossible for me right now. I could do the squats (probably 4 or 5) But maybe holding 25-30# dumbbells for squats, I can do that.

Hoisting extremely heavy weights, whether bar or dumbbells, overhead for bench presses is tough too, because there's a certain point where I could drop them on my head. *Not* while doing the reps, just setting up/putting the weights down.

I would enjoy getting some good instruction on form for "cleaning" heavy weights up. Or do they call it "snatching?" Maybe that's why some people say "You can't get a good workout at home?" The gym equipment makes it possible to safely use the weight that exhausts you in 4-6 reps without killing yourself directly before or after your set! :p

The Pure Strength series uses ten reps mostly. Cathe does more on the lower body precisely to make up for these difficulties, she says in PS and in S&H from my recollection. The endurance workouts I think are like a hybrid of cardio and weights.

Awaiting intelligent responses from others,

-Connie
 
I have been thinking about this too and started modifying Cathe's upper body workouts so that I can lift heavier weights. When I do PS, I go slower and lift heavier for some of the sets - especially the bicep section. Same with MIS. I'm going to do a CTX rotation next and will see how that works with heavier weights as well.
I can't go any heavier at home for lower body because I can't lift anymore weight safely over my head, so I depend on endurance workouts and use the heaviest weight possible.
Erica
 
Hi, Janice! Just thought I'd wade in here myself:

I do not use Cathe for strength training, so keep that in mind; I think you've read my earlier posts that I do all of my strength training out of my own pointy-little head.

IMHO, you're on the right track as far as increasing weight loads and decreasing reps for strengthening all of your muscle groups. I would also suggest that slowing down the reps is a good strength-builder as well. For example, I think we've seen Cathe progress over the years to include far more "low-end" squats and lunges, keeping the working muscles at the position where they're working hardest LONGER. Also IMHO, one can reach a point of diminishing returns when strength training, doing far more than they need to for strength gains and mass development / maintenance both in terms of frequency AND duration of each workout bout.

As far as bench presses, I left 35-lb barbells behind a long time ago; I normally do drop sets of 12-14 and then another 8 with a 55-lb barbell these days for my bench-press work each session. I'm a little goofy compared to others here on Cathe's forums; I follow the same standard strengthening routine each session, rather than mixing routines up every few weeks or so, just focusing on being able to add weight loads every few weeks or so. A little bit more than I did before, each and every session, is my motto, and that has resulted in huge strength gains.

Note too that building strength will not necessarily result in larger muscle size. For a more complete discussion on that, we'll have to call on Maribeth (who is on a cruise until Monday).

I hope at least some of this makes sense.

Annette Q. Aquajock
 
Hi Janice! Your not alone. I too have said the same thing as you. On a lot of Cathe's tapes I couldn't surpass 15# dumbbells for upper body because of the quickness of the reps and how many. When I started doing BodyRX way of weight lifting Dr. Connelly incorporates a large muscle (chest) with a small one (biceps) and he says to really blast the muscle from the very beginning. He wants you to do 3 exercises per body part, 3 sets but only do 6 reps per set with a 3 min. rest in between sets. Lift as heavy as you possibly can; do this for 6 weeks and then you move on up the ladder doing 4 sets for your large muscle with 8-10 reps and 5 sets for small muscle taking a 1-1/2 min. rest in between sets for 6 weeks; the next phase you climb up the ladder again but this time your also going to cut your bodyfat so all your beautiful and tight muscles will show through. Can't remember offhand what the 3rd Cycle is; I don't have the book on me at work. I also checked out the recent Muscle & Fitness Hers magazine and one woman champion competitor works her body parts just this way.

I never saw any more definition to my body when I did Cathe; no matter how many different ways we worked the muscles. Since lifting BodyRX's way, I've surpassed the 15# dumbbells the 20s are easy now and I use the 20s for just about every body part except legs and shoulders. Shoulders are 15#s for side laterals but I use 20#s for the overhead press and legs are 50#s but the 50 is easy now. I'll have to buy more plates. This is only in Cycle 1 mind you 6 weeks of lifting!

I found that the body parts that Dr. Connelly grouped together is a far better way for me anyway to lift.

Day 1: chest/biceps
Day 2: legs and abs
Day 3: back/triceps
Day 4: shoulders and abs

I don't think Cathe works her muscles according to her tapes. She was a bodybuilder competitor 13 years ago and I'll just bet you that she works her body this way. Good luck to you! Kathy
 
Kathy

I have been thinking about this lately too. My problem is, I don't seem to push myself without a video.

But, I do have a question for you. I haven't read BodyRx, but it sounds interesting if just for the lifting info. How long does a workout take? For example Day 1: chest, bis. Also, do you do this once a week or start the cycle over on day 5?

Any tips for lifting without a video? I've always wanted to be very strong...since I was about 8. I probably wanted to kick my brother's hineys or something.

Thanks!
Andrea
 
RE: Kathy

A couple of quick tips before Kathy replies.

1. Good music for your own workout is important! Also (from someone who has a hard time without a video)

2. a written routine works great, where you check off set by set. It's amazing how fast you forget where you are when you're under tension!

I have the book (BodyRx) right here... hmmm...(from p. 186:) "Each session consists of five exercises and should take about one hour from start to finish." Four days a week.

By the way, the ab exercises are just regular crunches with your feet up on a (step) footrest and decline reverse crunches.
 
A postscript to Janice

Another thing that popped into my head was that for increasing muscle size, (not necessarily strength...but I assume fat burning capacity), I have always read that *volume* is paramount. So even if hoisting 85# overhead is impossible, if you squat twice as much with 42.5# it's the same volume (Pounds X reps).
 
RE: Kathy

Hi Andrea! You do strength training 4 days. I also incorporate some cardio too even though Dr. Connelly says you don't have to. My week goes like this:

Sun: chest/bis & pilates or 30 min. cardio
Mon: 60 min. of cardio (Circuit Max or Cardio Kicks or Interval Max or Rhythmic Step)
Tues: legs/abs
Wed: back/tris
Thurs: shoulders/abs
Fri: Rest
Sat: yoga (a.m.) & then 30 min. cardo (p.m.)

However, the nutrition is a VERY big part of it. The more of the right foods you eat the more power you have to your lifting. This is really the key to weight training. I use Cathe's tapes but lift the Dr's way. The workout lasts for 1 hr. There are 4 Cycles: Getting Stronger, Getting Sculpted, Fat Burning and then Maintenance. You'll be getting stronger w/each Cycle and lifting heavier w/each Cycle too. Read the book to see if this is for you. Kathy
 
Good topic! I've been wondering about this too. Please keep talking, everyone.

Just some random thoughts..

I'm thinking about HB's posts about the Bun and Thigh Rocker. It seems that she may be accomplishing this type of goal for the lower body using that device.

When I consider all of this I start to get confused about what my goals really are...

What are your goals Janice? How about you body rx people. Does this program allow you to reach your own level and then maintain? (guess I ought to spring for the book and do some reading)

sorry to ramble.
-joy
 
I think it's hard to do the "ideal" weight workout at home without a spotter or racks, just because of safety concerns. That being said, I do think that, with the exception of Slow and HEavy, Cathe's strength workout are usually pretty fast paced. There doesn't seem to be any "in-between" workout, though some of the exercises on Pure Strength have 10-12 reps.

Also, to get the best workout, you should lift a weight for a number of reps beyond which you would be unable to lift with good form, wether that be 4-8 reps, 8-12 reps, or 15-20 reps, depending on your goals. When reps are being counted for you on a video, it's natural not to go beyond the number of reps that the instructor does, even though you could do more.

One solution would be to pop in a Cathe tape "for the company," and do your own rep speed and count while the rest of the "class" does what they do. You may end up going half the speed they do--or something in-between their speed and half-speed--continue to do reps while they rest, or vice-versa, or change things in other ways.

It's a good idea to workout out NOT to tapes once in a while, I think, but be sure you use some music that really drives you to want to give it your all.
 
Hi Joy! I'm doing the BRX program because I want to get more cut and everything else I tried just isn't working. I'll do the program for the entire 4 cycles and then probably just stay at cycle 4 for the rest of my life. I'll see what I can achieve but I know the answer is in lowering my bodyfat and this book tells you how to do it gradually. I don't have any weight to lose, just want to get more cut in my upper body and I finally understand how the bodybuilders take in all that protein and why but this program is NOT a low-carb diet at all. You'll have to figure out for yourself what your goals are and read the book for some insight. Good luck to you! Kathy
 
Hey Janice! A few words from our guru, Dr. Connelly from BRX on training:

"If you have limited time to exercise, spend it in the weight room! Weight training is the only exercise that can produce significant changes in your body composition. The positive effects of a well designed weight training program are far reaching and long lasting. The process of making and maintaining muscle has a nearly magical effect on the body.

Muscle acts as your fat-burning furnace. Lean muscle is the body’s main vehicle for fat burning. By increasing your amount of muscle, you are not only eliminating existing fat, but also drastically decreasing the chances of getting fat in the future. And the more muscle you have, the more fat you will burn, not only during times of activity, but during times of rest.

Strength training has all the heart-healthy benefits of aerobics and more! The benefits of aerobics pale in comparison to those of weight training. Contrary to public opinion, the cardiovascular benefit of aerobics is not due to its direct action on your heart. Rather, it is due to its effect on blood pressure—aerobic exercise relaxes the outer arteries delivering blood to your muscle cells. Weight training relaxes those same tiny arteries AND delivers countless more benefits, including increased strength, accelerated fat burning, and a better looking body.

The secret to weight training is to work with the right intensity. Many people mistakenly believe that the right way to lift weights is to do endless repetitions with very low weights. Instead of increasing weight as their work out gets easier, they keep increasing their repetitions. You should lift enough weight to challenge your muscles with each work-out.

Women have to weight train like men. Many women worry that lifting heavy weights will make them big and muscular like men. This is simply not true. Women do not have the same hormones as men and cannot get as big no matter how hard they work out. Lifting heavy weights will produce stronger muscles, but muscle is more compact than fat. The end result is more defined body, not a bigger one.'

Hope that makes some sense to you!
 
Hey Janice! A few words from our guru, Dr. Connelly from BRX on training:

"If you have limited time to exercise, spend it in the weight room! Weight training is the only exercise that can produce significant changes in your body composition. The positive effects of a well designed weight training program are far reaching and long lasting. The process of making and maintaining muscle has a nearly magical effect on the body.

Muscle acts as your fat-burning furnace. Lean muscle is the body’s main vehicle for fat burning. By increasing your amount of muscle, you are not only eliminating existing fat, but also drastically decreasing the chances of getting fat in the future. And the more muscle you have, the more fat you will burn, not only during times of activity, but during times of rest.

Strength training has all the heart-healthy benefits of aerobics and more! The benefits of aerobics pale in comparison to those of weight training. Contrary to public opinion, the cardiovascular benefit of aerobics is not due to its direct action on your heart. Rather, it is due to its effect on blood pressure—aerobic exercise relaxes the outer arteries delivering blood to your muscle cells. Weight training relaxes those same tiny arteries AND delivers countless more benefits, including increased strength, accelerated fat burning, and a better looking body.

The secret to weight training is to work with the right intensity. Many people mistakenly believe that the right way to lift weights is to do endless repetitions with very low weights. Instead of increasing weight as their work out gets easier, they keep increasing their repetitions. You should lift enough weight to challenge your muscles with each work-out.

Women have to weight train like men. Many women worry that lifting heavy weights will make them big and muscular like men. This is simply not true. Women do not have the same hormones as men and cannot get as big no matter how hard they work out. Lifting heavy weights will produce stronger muscles, but muscle is more compact than fat. The end result is more defined body, not a bigger one.'

Hope that makes some sense to you!
 
Mindi..

Great info. I have read Body Rx cover to cover. I only hesitate to ditch Cathe. I like her tapes. Also, I am very interested in muscle gain as well as pure strength.

To answer another question...my goals are optimum strength hopefully resulting in maximum muscle gain. I think these goals represent Cycles 1 and 2 of Body Rx. Fat loss is not as much a priority to me as I know once I add more muscle it will just happen automatically.

I want to train for strength and hypertrophy. I am thinking of doing a rotation of PS for awhile ( I have never done this series). I also thought of doing PS, each tape once a week, but every week switching out one tape for S&H, same body part. But I don't think they are grouped the same, are they??

I did S&H legs today with my Standing Legs addition. That seems to work well. I used my 30lb. dumbells for a total of 60lbs. for squats. Could have done more. My legs burn much worse during PH or LL at lower weights. I expect to find this same level of fatigue but it is just not there (until the end when Standing Legs pumps in some endurance work:).

I really do think I am building much the same with the rotations I have been doing of late. I make sure to up my weights each time if possible. I experience the same "burn" regardless of what tape I am doing. BUT I am busy so I would like to conserve my time. If I can only do the weight work that counts I might have an extra day for cardio, that is all...

I think I might do PS, start with real heavy weight at a slower tempo and then drop lower as the sets increase (or vice versa). I think this is much better than sticking to the same poundage throughout. Atleast this way you do experience strength gains while also building with the 12 total reps. It would be nice if PS and S&H were broken out the same. Then you could alternate. Like this..

Mon..S&H chest/back
Wed.. PS SLA
Fri..PS biceps triceps

Mon. PS chest/back
Wed. S&H legs shoulders
Fri.. PS biceps tri

Mon. PS Chest/back
Wed. Ps legs/shoulders
Fri. S&H biceps/tri

OR something along those lines. Even Cathe says with MIS, the beginner will experience strength gains, but the experienced lifter will not, the tape will be mostly endurance. I want to find a way to work both strength/muscle hypertrophy/and upper body endurance lifting in one rotation.

OH in a perfect world!! Ok, I will stop before I go on...and on.....and on.....

Thanks!
Janice
 
Janice you don't have to ditch her, you can incorporate her workouts I think, so far its been working for me. I use MIS, PS and S&H and while I may change my reps and sets and may increase weights, I'm still doing Cathe. :) I sometimes repeat a segment too. So far, so good!
 
Just a couple more comments here.

Kathy H, thanks for your comments. I seem to be able to get a good amount of muscle definition with Cathe (as long as I stay away from desserts.) I don't get bigger, though, and except for my glutes (too small) I am reasonably happy with the size of my muscles. I would like to get stronger.

I realized last night that my main goal is to have fun. That is why I am reluctant to give up the cardio. I realize that I really really enjoy it. But I know that cardio will interfere with your body's ability to put on muscle (that catabolizing thing) which I think would inhibit strength gains.

Also, I remember a post by Cathe where she had suggested a workout routine to someone trying to increase the poundage they used. She basically said to do 4 different exercises for a body part. Do the first one very heavy with 8 reps for three sets then the other 3 - 3 sets each but not as heavy. So it sounds somewhat similar to the body rx.

Rambling again. Still thinking...
Thanks all. (I love this stuff)

-joy
 
This is so interesting! PS came to mind when Janice originally asked if there was a Cathe tape for muscle size. I think the rep counts fall under the guidelines posted, and there are rests between sets, unlike the waaaay more endurance oriented CTX, for example.

I also want to ultimately keep increasing muscle size and strength...but I do feel there is a place in my fitness plan for endurance rotations, simply because endurance is so useful in everyday life. It also seems that it is the endurance phase of BodyRX that you "burn fat" and get cut.

What is everyone's opinion on MIS for strength and hypertrophy? I've been lifitng for just a couple of years...will I get strength gains from a MIS rotation?

Another interesting thing I read in last months issue of Men's fitness: they outline a circuit weight workout (moving from one exercise to the next, no rests, high reps, ie, a Cathe endurance routine just like CTX) and caution that you should only do these kinds of rotations for 2 weeks, or you begin to lose strength gains.

Christine
 
This has been a really interesting thread. I too am looking to increase muscle size, and wonder if even PS is going to do it as the rests are too short to recover enough to use heavy weights. I don't like working out on my own without a tape, as I don't have the motivation. So, I am planning to try this:

Use the Slow and Heavy series, but rather than use the 6 positive/2 negative count (which is fine for a short while, but too tedious to do long term), I plan to use a 2 positive/2 negative count for 8-12 reps. This means I will finish each set a little earlier than Cathe, but this is okay because I will just get a slightly longer rest. If I can reach 12 reps, then I will increase the weight on the next set or next workout, and always stay between 8-12 for hypertrophy.

Another way is to use the 2/2 count, but do sets of 12 on Week 1, then increase the weights and do sets of 10 on Week 2, then increase the weights and do sets of 8 on Week 3. When you go back to sets of 12, you should be stronger.

Has anyone else thought of trying these kinds of variations?
Sharon.
 
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